We Have Been Betrayed

[BlackJaq]

Go ahead blow yourselves up - who needs animal rights?

Sounds like a chant at a P.E.T.A rally

Which brings us back to an opinion...... does a dog have the right to have a tail or not.

If the dogs could have a vote on it, I wonder who they would vote to have blown up?

You'd think that would depend on whether they have a history of tail injuries or not?

ETA: I'd also think gun dog breed who traditionally only had about a third of their tail docked would be more happy than those breeds who only had a stub left after docking

Edited February 6, 2013 by BlackJaq

[WreckitWhippet]

So where are all these people that have illegally docked dogs, that have been charged for it ? If the people illegally docking exist in such numbers, that results in a proposal being put forward to the ANKC, surely there's some evidence to back up the claims ?

As I said earlier,

The accusation has been made.

Put up or shut up.

Someone needs to be held accountable.

For the action or for the accusation.

The fact is there isn't any proof that people have been illegally docking, there haven't been a great number of charges laid and quite frankly I can't remember any ANKC exhibitor being charged, after the very first example hung out to dry years ago.

So it looks to be nothing more than someone carting out their bucket of sour grapes and chucking it in the direction of the ANKC.

[Sheridan]

Well, isn't the easiest thing to do is contact the guy who brought forth the motion and ask him?

[Showpony]

So where are all these people that have illegally docked dogs, that have been charged for it ? If the people illegally docking exist in such numbers, that results in a proposal being put forward to the ANKC, surely there's some evidence to back up the claims ?

As I said earlier,

The accusation has been made.

Put up or shut up.

Someone needs to be held accountable.

For the action or for the accusation.

The fact is there isn't any proof that people have been illegally docking, there haven't been a great number of charges laid and quite frankly I can't remember any ANKC exhibitor being charged, after the very first example hung out to dry years ago.

So it looks to be nothing more than someone carting out their bucket of sour grapes and chucking it in the direction of the ANKC.

The fact is there isn't any proof that people have been illegally docking, there haven't been a great number of charges laid and quite frankly I can't remember any ANKC exhibitor being charged, after the very first example hung out to dry years ago.

Hi,

There has been a couple of de-registered litters in the Gundog group within the last 2 years ......plus I regularly see Gundogs that have had their tails tipped and currently being shown, even in my breed........I quess unless ppl make an official complaint nothing will happen.......yes there are pups being legally docked in Gundogs, often the reason given is a tail accident.......must be a fair few clumsy dogs around. Also should have added, that in the UK, docked dogs are still allowed to compete in Field Trials, Obedience, Agility, etc and they are also still allowed to be shown providing the Club holding the show doesn't charge an admission fee to the general public

Edited February 7, 2013 by Showpony

[Wundahoo]

Sorry, double post !

Edited February 7, 2013 by Wundahoo

[Wundahoo]

So where are all these people that have illegally docked dogs, that have been charged for it ? If the people illegally docking exist in such numbers, that results in a proposal being put forward to the ANKC, surely there's some evidence to back up the claims ?

As I said earlier,

The accusation has been made.

Put up or shut up.

Someone needs to be held accountable.

For the action or for the accusation.

The fact is there isn't any proof that people have been illegally docking, there haven't been a great number of charges laid and quite frankly I can't remember any ANKC exhibitor being charged, after the very first example hung out to dry years ago.

So it looks to be nothing more than someone carting out their bucket of sour grapes and chucking it in the direction of the ANKC.

The fact is there isn't any proof that people have been illegally docking, there haven't been a great number of charges laid and quite frankly I can't remember any ANKC exhibitor being charged, after the very first example hung out to dry years ago.

Hi,

There has been a couple of de-registered litters in the Gundog group within the last 2 years ......plus I regularly see Gundogs that have had their tails tipped and currently being shown, even in my breed........I quess unless ppl make an official complaint nothing will happen.......yes there are pups being legally docked in Gundogs, often the reason given is a tail accident.......must be a fair few clumsy dogs around.

So why have these litters been "de-registered" ????

[Showpony]

So where are all these people that have illegally docked dogs, that have been charged for it ? If the people illegally docking exist in such numbers, that results in a proposal being put forward to the ANKC, surely there's some evidence to back up the claims ?

As I said earlier,

The accusation has been made.

Put up or shut up.

Someone needs to be held accountable.

For the action or for the accusation.

The fact is there isn't any proof that people have been illegally docking, there haven't been a great number of charges laid and quite frankly I can't remember any ANKC exhibitor being charged, after the very first example hung out to dry years ago.

So it looks to be nothing more than someone carting out their bucket of sour grapes and chucking it in the direction of the ANKC.

The fact is there isn't any proof that people have been illegally docking, there haven't been a great number of charges laid and quite frankly I can't remember any ANKC exhibitor being charged, after the very first example hung out to dry years ago.

Hi,

There has been a couple of de-registered litters in the Gundog group within the last 2 years ......plus I regularly see Gundogs that have had their tails tipped and currently being shown, even in my breed........I quess unless ppl make an official complaint nothing will happen.......yes there are pups being legally docked in Gundogs, often the reason given is a tail accident.......must be a fair few clumsy dogs around.

So why have these litters been "de-registered" ????

Because the docking didn't conform to the DogNSW Rules.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Showpony

[Wundahoo]

Showpony can you tell me what those rules are please ?

[Showpony]

Showpony can you tell me what those rules are please ?

Hi,

Go to the DogsNSW website ........Members section, Regulations (you dont have to log in to see this) Part 1 Section 22 and Show Section 14.4, and there is probably another section covering application for registering a docked dog in the Registration Section as there is paperwork available in the forms section to do this.

[Steve]

So was it referred to the police? Were they charged?

[cruzzi]

So where are all these people that have illegally docked dogs, that have been charged for it ? If the people illegally docking exist in such numbers, that results in a proposal being put forward to the ANKC, surely there's some evidence to back up the claims ?

As I said earlier,

The accusation has been made.

Put up or shut up.

Someone needs to be held accountable.

For the action or for the accusation.

The fact is there isn't any proof that people have been illegally docking, there haven't been a great number of charges laid and quite frankly I can't remember any ANKC exhibitor being charged, after the very first example hung out to dry years ago.

So it looks to be nothing more than someone carting out their bucket of sour grapes and chucking it in the direction of the ANKC.

If there isn't any proof then accuser should be held to account for bringing the membership into disrepute.

Is the "example hung out to dry" of which you speak the well known judge & breeder that I heard of?

Edited February 7, 2013 by cruzzi

[Showpony]

So was it referred to the police? Were they charged?

No......because there is some leaway with the rules for tail accidents, and if the correct paperwork has been done......also there for a while it was legal to dock dogs in WA......but this has been changed now.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Showpony

[cruzzi]

Since when has "quail finding" be an ANKC sanctioned event?

You need to look outside Group 2 a bit more often Dougie. It's called Field Trialling and quail are central to the sport. :)

And just how many of the previously docked breeds are from group 3

Nearly all breeds of dog that compete in Utility Field Trials are a traditionally docked breed - Bracco, Brittany, GSP, GWP, Vizsla, Wirehaired Vizsla, Weimaraner, Italian Spinone. The spaniel breeds that can compete in the Spaniel & Retriever field trials are traditionally docked - Cocker, Am Cocker, Clumber, English Springer, Field, Welsh Springer, Sussex.

eta. Docking is not limited to nearly complete removal of the tail. Most of the above gundogs traditionally had 1/4 to 2/3 of their tail removed. Indeed many people I meet do not even realise that my older Vizsla is docked at all, but it makes all the difference.

And since field work is restricted to group 3 dogs I don't see how they would affected.

Huh?

But just out of curiousity, what percentage of the dogs that compete in ANKC trials suffer tail damage that requires amputation?

I couldn't give you a percentage, I doubt anyone could! I'm in the very situation of having a young dog of a previsouly docked breed that is suffering ongoing tail issues which may well require amputation. She was intended to compete in several ANKC sporting events, as well as the show ring. She may not be affected by this motion due to her DOB, but my next dog may well be.

I knew I had left myself wide open.

Being in hurry I pressed send & then gave it some throught as I was cruising to my appontment.

I don't believe editing after replies have been posted.

I was miles off the mark. Lesson learned.

Curious though, Genuine question.how did you young dog hurt his tail so badly it may have to been amputated?

Cynical question, are the amputations usually performed at the same vertebrae the breed was previously docked at.

[FHRP]

I knew I had left myself wide open.

Being in hurry I pressed send & then gave it some throught as I was cruising to my appontment.

I don't believe editing after replies have been posted.

I was miles off the mark. Lesson learned.

Curious though, Genuine question.how did you young dog hurt his tail so badly it may have to been amputated?

Cynical question, are the amputations usually performed at the same vertebrae the breed was previously docked at.

The initial bleeding split occured after she hit her tail on walls and doorways in my house with her enthusiastic wagging of a tail with a thin whippy end. Generally hitting it on things in her environment caused the hair to break/wear off first, and then without protection the split. She has since injured it up while training (retrieving), again in the house (mine and firends) and in a friends backyard.

With Vizslas, the ideal length to prevent further tail injury generally is the previously docked length. I would certainly ask for a 1/4 off amputation if it came to it. I do know of at least one Vizsla who had to undergo two amputation surgeries because the vet was too conservative initially I doubt my vet would do an amputation on a dobermann to their traditional length for the same tail tip injury, but I'm sure some showies and breeders have found ones that do.

Edited February 7, 2013 by FHRP

[Showpony]

I knew I had left myself wide open.

Being in hurry I pressed send & then gave it some throught as I was cruising to my appontment.

I don't believe editing after replies have been posted.

I was miles off the mark. Lesson learned.

Curious though, Genuine question.how did you young dog hurt his tail so badly it may have to been amputated?

Cynical question, are the amputations usually performed at the same vertebrae the breed was previously docked at.

The initial bleeding split occured after she hit her tail on walls and doorways in my house with her enthusiastic wagging of a tail with a thin whippy end. Generally hitting it on things in her environment caused the hair to break/wear off first, and then without protection the split. She has since injured it up while training (retrieving), again in the house (mine and firends) and in a friends backyard.

With Vizslas, the ideal length to prevent further tail injury generally is the previously docked length. I would certainly ask for a 1/4 off amputation if it came to it. I do know of at least one Vizsla who had to undergo two amputation surgeries because the vet was too conservative initially I doubt my vet would do an amputation on a dobermann to their traditional length for the same tail tip injury, but I'm sure some showies and breeders have found ones that do.

and this isn't just a problem with Vizslas....can also happen to GSP, Weis, etc even Pointers who have always had a full length tail.......I have had a bitch that broke her tail (last 3 joints) very badly, doing the same thing

Edited February 7, 2013 by Showpony

[FHRP]

The initial bleeding split occured after she hit her tail on walls and doorways in my house with her enthusiastic wagging of a tail with a thin whippy end. Generally hitting it on things in her environment caused the hair to break/wear off first, and then without protection the split. She has since injured it up while training (retrieving), again in the house (mine and firends) and in a friends backyard.

With Vizslas, the ideal length to prevent further tail injury generally is the previously docked length. I would certainly ask for a 1/4 off amputation if it came to it. I do know of at least one Vizsla who had to undergo two amputation surgeries because the vet was too conservative initially I doubt my vet would do an amputation on a dobermann to their traditional length for the same tail tip injury, but I'm sure some showies and breeders have found ones that do.

and this isn't just a problem with Vizslas....can also happen to GSP, Weis, etc even Pointers who have always had a full length tail.......I have had a bitch that broke her tail (last 3 joints) very badly, doing the same thing

Of course it's not, I know of a Dalmatian who had to have part of it's tail amputated for the same reason

[Steve]

So where are all these people that have illegally docked dogs, that have been charged for it ? If the people illegally docking exist in such numbers, that results in a proposal being put forward to the ANKC, surely there's some evidence to back up the claims ?

As I said earlier,

The accusation has been made.

Put up or shut up.

Someone needs to be held accountable.

For the action or for the accusation.

The fact is there isn't any proof that people have been illegally docking, there haven't been a great number of charges laid and quite frankly I can't remember any ANKC exhibitor being charged, after the very first example hung out to dry years ago.

So it looks to be nothing more than someone carting out their bucket of sour grapes and chucking it in the direction of the ANKC.

If there isn't any proof then accuser should be held to account for bringing the membership into disrepute.

Is the "example hung out to dry" of which you speak the well known judge & breeder that I heard of?

Agree.

[Rebanne]

The initial bleeding split occured after she hit her tail on walls and doorways in my house with her enthusiastic wagging of a tail with a thin whippy end. Generally hitting it on things in her environment caused the hair to break/wear off first, and then without protection the split. She has since injured it up while training (retrieving), again in the house (mine and firends) and in a friends backyard.

With Vizslas, the ideal length to prevent further tail injury generally is the previously docked length. I would certainly ask for a 1/4 off amputation if it came to it. I do know of at least one Vizsla who had to undergo two amputation surgeries because the vet was too conservative initially I doubt my vet would do an amputation on a dobermann to their traditional length for the same tail tip injury, but I'm sure some showies and breeders have found ones that do.

and this isn't just a problem with Vizslas....can also happen to GSP, Weis, etc even Pointers who have always had a full length tail.......I have had a bitch that broke her tail (last 3 joints) very badly, doing the same thing

Of course it's not, I know of a Dalmatian who had to have part of it's tail amputated for the same reason

happens to greyhounds as well

[angelsun]

I'll have to check facts to be sure, but I believe that in Sweden, docked dogs (or perhaps it is cropped) are now ineligible to be shown, regardless of where they came from (meaning that they were done legally)

Lets go back a bit....many of you won't ever remember seeing cropped ear dogs here...yes there were,. and yes they were eligible to compete inspite of what some of you have been told. NO, they act of cropping ears has been long gone in this country but importing legally cropped ear dogs and showing, was permitted....until a VERY short time ago (one of the more recent changes to the ANKC rules, closed the loophole)

I know this part first hand because last year I was looking at bringing a dog in that I had bred, was cropped (and docked) and living in another country at the moment. I wanted to show him, and had been told that cropped ears had never been allowed however a few years prior to that, I was reading the rules and it was not against the rules, however was implied through those I spoke with, that judges would likely non award. I was willing to take my chances and kept pursuing it.

Anyway, the point of this is simple...there was a time when physically altered appearances could be shown, now it's not permitted. Docked tails will in time be in this catagory. I don't agree with it, but since it seems that a lot of people controlling this issue either are not breeders or are not breeders of traditionally docked breeds, we must accept that in time, our docked dogs will not be eligible to be shown.

For those that say a law can't be changed....take a lesson from NZ. I applaud their work and committment to stand together as a dog fraternity.

For so many that feel the need to comment, I would like to see only those with traditionally docked breeds involved in the debate, as to be honest, the rest of you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the charges of cruelty due to docking tails, and this is why we are in this mess to begin with.

Fire away, you are entitled to your opinions, as am I.

[cruzzi]

I'll have to check facts to be sure, but I believe that in Sweden, docked dogs (or perhaps it is cropped) are now ineligible to be shown, regardless of where they came from (meaning that they were done legally)

Lets go back a bit....many of you won't ever remember seeing cropped ear dogs here...yes there were,. and yes they were eligible to compete inspite of what some of you have been told. NO, they act of cropping ears has been long gone in this country but importing legally cropped ear dogs and showing, was permitted....until a VERY short time ago (one of the more recent changes to the ANKC rules, closed the loophole)

I know this part first hand because last year I was looking at bringing a dog in that I had bred, was cropped (and docked) and living in another country at the moment. I wanted to show him, and had been told that cropped ears had never been allowed however a few years prior to that, I was reading the rules and it was not against the rules, however was implied through those I spoke with, that judges would likely non award. I was willing to take my chances and kept pursuing it.

Anyway, the point of this is simple...there was a time when physically altered appearances could be shown, now it's not permitted. Docked tails will in time be in this catagory. I don't agree with it, but since it seems that a lot of people controlling this issue either are not breeders or are not breeders of traditionally docked breeds, we must accept that in time, our docked dogs will not be eligible to be shown.

For those that say a law can't be changed....take a lesson from NZ. I applaud their work and committment to stand together as a dog fraternity.

For so many that feel the need to comment, I would like to see only those with traditionally docked breeds involved in the debate, as to be honest, the rest of you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the charges of cruelty due to docking tails, and this is why we are in this mess to begin with.

Fire away, you are entitled to your opinions, as am I.

I agree with your comments regarding NZ.

Certainly more sensible approach than us.

I can't recall ever seeing a cropped exhibit being show in Australia.

Eligibility to comment.

I owned & exhibited Rottweilers for over 15 years.