Free Training Session From Shelter

[teekay]

A friend of mine recently adopted a Great Dane x from an animal refuge. He is only about 12 months old so just a big puppy really. The refuge offered a free training session and, as they were having issues with walking a big dog they took up their offer.

I am concerned about the advice this trainer gave. She seem to be very much of the 'be a dominant leader' brigade and said that if he doesn't do as he is told they are to growl at him to show him who is boss

So now my friend is busy growling away at this dog and is proud when his ears go right back as he is being 'submissive'

He has bowled her over a couple of times on walks, the most recent of which has resulted in a broken ankle and she posted on FB that she needs to get his dominance issues sorted out. Now I looked after this dog for a day and he is anything but dominant. He's a big dog with a tendency to get over excited, he is not dominant.

I am trying to gently coax her more in the direction of positive reinforcement ( I asked her if she has any treats and she says, "yeah they are in the top of the cupboard, but I haven't really used them" ), so while she is laid up at the moment does anyone have any recommendation for her?

Any books or dvd's, you tube videos? I have suggested she watch some Kikopup videos and have offered to go and talk to her but I think getting her to be more open to non dominance theory training could be an uphill battle.

[Weasels]

Surely the fact that it's not working should be a clue?

Anyway, kikopup and dogstar daily are the best online resources in terms of scope IMO. But you can ask questions. Dominance is an attempt to gain priority access to a resource. What resource is the dog attempting to access? It's a given that dogs experience fear, excitement and confusion, would these not be a simpler explanation? How does the dog know what you want it TO do?

Even if it is motivated by an attempt to establish dominance, that doesn't magically make the behaviour exempt from operant conditioning. Dogs will still do what works and give up on what doesn't, regardless of the motivation. So you don't neccesarily need to talk her out of dominance to talk her into training the dog.

Some resources on canine body language might help too, Lili Chin posters being the most accessible :)

Edit - or you could just start growling at her every time she says something that doesn't make sense, to see how useful it is as a communication tool ;)

Edited August 16, 2013 by TheLBD

[Alkhe]

I hate stories like this!

I'd give her a copy of The Other End of the Leash to read - it's a lovely book and really explains the underlying reasons behind positive reinforcement training and examples of her experiences with various 'types' of dogs.

Also, maybe some Karen Pryor, or Sophia Yin? Sophia Yin is very accessible and "fun" :)

[teekay]

Thanks both. LBD I did laugh at the thought of growling at her. Would probably get the point across :laugh:

Have ordered that book Alkhe. Thanks for the recommendation. It is very sad that this is the trainer the shelter uses. I was really surprised.

[persephone]

yep , walk in, say hello, and when she moves , "AAAAGH"! watch & see her twitch , her ears go back , and her eyes pop , and explain that you thought she was being dominant , and it's good to see her freeze in fear & confusion, all dominance gone ! ;)

[raineth]

I have a couple of things in mind teekay :)

It would be obviously work best if she can come to the conclusion herself that what that trained recommended is not right, or at the very least, not working.

Great Dane Rescue and Rehoming has a really good downloadable pdf that contains lots of excellent info on Danes including (if I remember correctly) on teaching loose leash walking. here is the link: http://www.greatdanerescue.com.au/Docs/Love%20is%20a%20Great%20Dane.pdf

download it on her computer :)

Ok hang on I couldn't find the bit about loose-leash walking but it has lots of other good info in there including bits on hyper dogs and on NILIF.

I find the 'be a tree' method works better for the large excitable dogs. Every time tension is put on the leash the human stops dead and dog doesn't get to move forward. I wait to the count of twelve before moving on. It is very simple and seems to make excitable dogs calmer, whereas methods involving treats can keep them quite excited. You have to be consistent obviously, and stop every time they pull on that leash for it to work.

I thought that if you have some time, and if you are spending some time with this dog anyway (if the owner is laid up with a broken ankle) you could perhaps start this just in your backyard to begin with? Then you can tell her you had a go with that method and hey presto! You think you see some improvement! And Myabe she'd like to give it a go when she's back on her feet. In the meantime while she's laid up, she has plenty of time to read the pdf :)

[raineth]

yep , walk in, say hello, and when she moves , "AAAAGH"! watch & see her twitch , her ears go back , and her eyes pop , and explain that you thought she was being dominant , and it's good to see her freeze in fear & confusion, all dominance gone ! ;)

lol that's a cracker Persephone :laugh:

[teekay]

yep , walk in, say hello, and when she moves , "AAAAGH"! watch & see her twitch , her ears go back , and her eyes pop , and explain that you thought she was being dominant , and it's good to see her freeze in fear & confusion, all dominance gone ! ;)

Priceless Persephone

I have sent her that link Raineth, thanks for that.

She says she has read everything I have sent her and I will go and see her next week. Problem is, I'm not a trainer so I do not have confidence in my abilities to help all that much, just to point her in the right direction.

[Purdie]

...That's great persephone..

[raineth]

yep , walk in, say hello, and when she moves , "AAAAGH"! watch & see her twitch , her ears go back , and her eyes pop , and explain that you thought she was being dominant , and it's good to see her freeze in fear & confusion, all dominance gone ! ;)

Priceless Persephone

I have sent her that link Raineth, thanks for that.

She says she has read everything I have sent her and I will go and see her next week. Problem is, I'm not a trainer so I do not have confidence in my abilities to help all that much, just to point her in the right direction.

No problem teekay, I hope she finds it helpful :)

Hopefully she'll try a different way and have no more broken bones!

Pass on the "be a tree" method if you remember it, it is really good for those hyper dogs and doesn't require much co-ordination or anything :)

[teekay]

yep , walk in, say hello, and when she moves , "AAAAGH"! watch & see her twitch , her ears go back , and her eyes pop , and explain that you thought she was being dominant , and it's good to see her freeze in fear & confusion, all dominance gone ! ;)

Priceless Persephone

I have sent her that link Raineth, thanks for that.

She says she has read everything I have sent her and I will go and see her next week. Problem is, I'm not a trainer so I do not have confidence in my abilities to help all that much, just to point her in the right direction.

No problem teekay, I hope she finds it helpful :)

Hopefully she'll try a different way and have no more broken bones!

Pass on the "be a tree" method if you remember it, it is really good for those hyper dogs and doesn't require much co-ordination or anything :)

Thanks Raineth, I will. That's what worked best for teaching Luka loose leasing walking too :D Trouble is, he is.a lot of dog to stand still with :laugh: I have recommended a front attach harness to give them more control. She wanted to use a halti but I am concerned with his lunging that he would injure himself.

[luvsdogs]

There's also lots of Dane info from Honey, lots of videos on training, outings, blog etc.

http://bighoneydog.com/clickertraining/

[disintegratus]

Another thing that might help is some of those "armchair training" techniques, which are entirely positive reinforcement. Perhaps if she sees how effective positive reinforcement can be, and how much more fun it is compared to constantly reprimanding the dog, she will be more easily swayed against "dominating" :)