Clicker Training, A Good Idea?

[Kavik]

I also think that that label is a bit of a misnomer due to things already discussed such as with holding a treat is negative as is a nonreward marker.

It really shouldn't be aversive, though. I'd feel like I'd failed to explain what I wanted, or asked too much, if a dog I was training actually got stressed about a reward being withheld, or didn't use a NRM as an opportunity to try something different.

Do you really think there is no stress at all involved with removal of a reward? Sorry, but I just can't buy it and science doesn't either. We know removing a high value reward is stressful to a dog. It's stressful to people too. IMO there is stress in all learning and I don't think that's a bad thing.

If removing a reward or giving a NRM created no stress in the dog at all it wouldn't be effective.

I agree totally. I mentioned previously in the discussion that my working line GSD has bitten me twice from withholding reward and the dog was stressed and getting angry and decided to help himself. Because someone hasn't experienced a dog of that intensity and the stress isn't as obvious, doesn't mean it's non existent........on more extreme dogs these cracks IME are greater highlighted to see the effects more vividly.

With my dog withholding a bite reward, the first stage is intense calm focus.....then the body trembling the anticipation......then high pitched yipping, feet bouncing.....then the bark deepens then he will fight you for it with aggression. As his handler/owner I don't want to take it the past the yipping in fact I reward the calm focus, but you can see the stress building in full drive and arousal to point of overload and he could nail me for that reward.

The after effect of that is submission, he knows he went too far, the ears are flat on his head and he sooks and licks me......to say that reward withholding is not stressful for the dog......I have never seen my dog as stressed as that scenario when taken too far.

Wouldn't the dog biting you because you withheld the reward fall under the category of lack of impulse control? Or frustration?

I agree that withholding rewards can be stressful, you can see it in shaping if the dog shuts down, leaves work, or barks, they have to learn to work through frustration.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Kavik

[Aidan3]

If it were a large exotic, you'd be maimed or dead. But there is a world of difference between training with the science of +R and just chucking a few rewards into your training.

[sheena]

I don't think Santo66 fully understands Clicker Training :) The original OP's question was "Clicker Training, A Good Idea" & I am sure the answer to that is a resounding "YES"

[Alyosha]

This is just bad training IMO. As a trainer you should be using what your dog finds rewarding. If a dog isn't motivated by the traditional food or toys, then you need to use other things. You can use being allowed to run off leash or go sniff as rewards, and you can also direct prey drive into toys with not all that much effort.

Sorry, just have to say this is a pretty massive generalisation. Strong prey drive is not "easily" redirected onto anything so dull as toys or food. My dogs have low interest in toys or food at their most focussed - they respond best to affection, which is fine.

But if there is a rabbit running, or a possibility of a rabbit running, somewhere in the vicinity - any food or toys (or even affection for that matter!) may as well be on Pluto... Doesn't matter if on or off leash. I can have a smidgen of attention, but redirecting that prey drive?? Nothing is more rewarding to them than that potential chase. That is far more engrained than anything else.

Less OT - clicker training works for many people. But for folks that use it, can you tell me how you use it in multiple dog situations without distractions etc? I don't just mean to your dog. Am genuinely curious, as recently at a dog event one person had quite a loud clicker for use on their dog - which seemed quite effective. However everyone else's dogs kept turning around to see what the noise was and it was quite distracting. Do other clicker trained dogs also get distracted by someone else using one?

[Aidan3]

Not usually, they learn the cues that the click is for them or not very quickly.

[Santo66]

Wouldn't the dog biting you because you withheld the reward fall under the category of lack of impulse control? Or frustration?

Withholding reward applies pressure to the dog and when the dog blows over composure threshold, the dog is in a stressful state.

If it were a large exotic, you'd be maimed or dead. But there is a world of difference between training with the science of +R and just chucking a few rewards into your training.

I would question how many trainers claiming +R are applying the science of it as most I have seen in practice are simply luring and chucking a few rewards around......maybe the reason why it appears not to be working reliably in mainstream training perhaps?

I don't think Santo66 fully understands Clicker Training :) The original OP's question was "Clicker Training, A Good Idea" & I am sure the answer to that is a resounding "YES"

Personally I think clicker training is cumbersome and takes a skill level higher than what the average dog owner has to correctly apply it. I have found co-ordination and timing is more accurate using marker words, that is they seem more adapt at using their voice at the opportune moment than pressing the clicker. Aside from people training in a more competitive foundation, most general dog owners playing with clickers are usually messing it up from my observations. If used correctly, yes, if used incorrectly owner has no control of the dog without the clicker which is quite common.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Santo66

[Kavik]

I find that I am using an actual clicker less and less often, now either use a marker word or no markers at all, but using reward placement etc.

[OSoSwift]

I have trained classes of up to 10 people all training with clickers. The dogs were focussed on their handler and I do not remember any particular dog or occassion where the dog worked off other peoples clicks or was distracted by them or if they were it was brief and and easy to refocus them.

I use marker words and the clicker however I find the clicker far more precise than a word so that is why I use it, particularly when teaching something or refining something by degrees. It is also a consistant noise and not emotional such as the voice can be.

[Kavik]

Wouldn't the dog biting you because you withheld the reward fall under the category of lack of impulse control? Or frustration?

Withholding reward applies pressure to the dog and when the dog blows over composure threshold, the dog is in a stressful state.

So that falls on the opposite end of the frustration spectrum than shutting down. (In other words, the dog stresses high instead of stressing low. Most of my dogs stress low, but Nitro the pup stresses high, and will be a different challenge for me!)

Edited October 1, 2013 by Kavik

[Aidan3]

If it were a large exotic, you'd be maimed or dead. But there is a world of difference between training with the science of +R and just chucking a few rewards into your training.

I would question how many trainers claiming +R are applying the science of it as most I have seen in practice are simply luring and chucking a few rewards around......maybe the reason why it appears not to be working reliably in mainstream training perhaps?

Possibly, I think you get a range of abilities, like anything else. If training of trainers were less political and more technical I think we'd see an improvement in ability overall. It's actually very simple, but the simple stuff gets overlooked. Throw in a bit of emotional stuff ("I can't let him get away with that", "I don't want to reinforce the wrong thing", "it's stressful to withhold a reward", "dogs aren't dolphins/chickens/pigeons" etc) and you're suddenly well off the track.

I don't think Santo66 fully understands Clicker Training :) The original OP's question was "Clicker Training, A Good Idea" & I am sure the answer to that is a resounding "YES"

Personally I think clicker training is cumbersome and takes a skill level higher than what the average dog owner has to correctly apply it. I have found co-ordination and timing is more accurate using marker words, that is they seem more adapt at using their voice at the opportune moment than pressing the clicker.

I usually start people off without a clicker, and then when they have some of the mechanics of training on auto-pilot we put a clicker in their hands and things take off. For work with reactive dogs there is nothing more precise, and more predictive of a reinforcer, than a clicker.

[Aidan3]

But if there is a rabbit running, or a possibility of a rabbit running, somewhere in the vicinity - any food or toys (or even affection for that matter!) may as well be on Pluto... Doesn't matter if on or off leash. I can have a smidgen of attention, but redirecting that prey drive?? Nothing is more rewarding to them than that potential chase. That is far more engrained than anything else.

Of course this is true, but in the longer term a properly constructed reinforcement history will overcome that.

[Santo66]

Wouldn't the dog biting you because you withheld the reward fall under the category of lack of impulse control? Or frustration?

Withholding reward applies pressure to the dog and when the dog blows over composure threshold, the dog is in a stressful state.

So that falls on the opposite end of the frustration spectrum than shutting down.

Yes. I haven't had a dog previously with the level of fight drive this dog has with a noticeable and defined switch......his father is the much the same so I guess a genetic component, but it's interesting to see it unfold under pressure where the stages of frustration begin and end,where prey drive turns into fight. Obviously it's a testament to the reason for not working your own dog beyond prey and fun, but the stress was vividly noticeable with mass confusion for the dog thinking he should need to fight his handler......mostly you get a shut down but in this case it went the other way being an eye opener to chalk up as yet another noteworthy experience. Prior to these experiences I would have probably said that withholding reward is not a particular stressful event for a dog...my opinion of that is now changed somewhat.

[huski]

This is just bad training IMO. As a trainer you should be using what your dog finds rewarding. If a dog isn't motivated by the traditional food or toys, then you need to use other things. You can use being allowed to run off leash or go sniff as rewards, and you can also direct prey drive into toys with not all that much effort.

Sorry, just have to say this is a pretty massive generalisation. Strong prey drive is not "easily" redirected onto anything so dull as toys or food. My dogs have low interest in toys or food at their most focussed - they respond best to affection, which is fine.

But if there is a rabbit running, or a possibility of a rabbit running, somewhere in the vicinity - any food or toys (or even affection for that matter!) may as well be on Pluto... Doesn't matter if on or off leash. I can have a smidgen of attention, but redirecting that prey drive?? Nothing is more rewarding to them than that potential chase. That is far more engrained than anything else.

I think it can be more work to teach the dog to work in prey drive for you if it has been allowed to learn to get drive satisfaction from chasing live prey, but if you teach them from the beginning to play the game with you it's much easier. I have never met a dog with more prey drive than our Mals, i would bet their prey drive will rival any dogs, and they will recall off live prey without hesitation. They have a strong reward history that tells them complying with our commands will give them guaranteed drive satisfaction.

And we will use what many people regard as the "dullest" tugs out there - rolled leather, plain French linen etc. our dogs don't need to see the toy or have it waived around in competition to live prey in order to get their attention. If the dog has usable prey drive it can be channeled with the use of even the dullest toy. How much work this take depends on the dogs reward history etc

Edited October 1, 2013 by huski

[LisaCC]

Maybe I'm having a really slow day but it only just clicked () that +R = Positive Reinforcement.

[Cosmolo]

Aidan can you explain why you feel a clicker is more effective than a verbal marker when conditioned the same way?

And i absolutely agree with this-

"Possibly, I think you get a range of abilities, like anything else. If training of trainers were less political and more technical I think we'd see an improvement in ability overall. It's actually very simple, but the simple stuff gets overlooked. Throw in a bit of emotional stuff ("I can't let him get away with that", "I don't want to reinforce the wrong thing", "it's stressful to withhold a reward", "dogs aren't dolphins/chickens/pigeons" etc) and you're suddenly well off the track."

[huski]

If training of trainers were less political and more technical I think we'd see an improvement in ability overall. It's actually very simple, but the simple stuff gets overlooked. Throw in a bit of emotional stuff ("I can't let him get away with that", "I don't want to reinforce the wrong thing", "it's stressful to withhold a reward", "dogs aren't dolphins/chickens/pigeons" etc) and you're suddenly well off track

I think this is true of training in general not just when it comes to the use of +R. IME far too many people allow their emotions and politics to get in the way of effective training.

[Santo66]

But if there is a rabbit running, or a possibility of a rabbit running, somewhere in the vicinity - any food or toys (or even affection for that matter!) may as well be on Pluto... Doesn't matter if on or off leash. I can have a smidgen of attention, but redirecting that prey drive?? Nothing is more rewarding to them than that potential chase. That is far more engrained than anything else.

Of course this is true, but in the longer term a properly constructed reinforcement history will overcome that.

To a point yes, but it will never be as reliable as a dog with greater genetic focus for handler induced prey which can be determined in puppies at 6 to 7 weeks old and becomes part of common puppy selection process in a working dog. Last time I chose that in my pup and with constructed foundation training to strengthen or reinforce those genetics, this particular dog is awesome in maintaining handler focus as an adult through any distraction whatsoever......his brother who I also tested as a puppy is not even close to this guy, but you could see that vividly at 7 weeks old. What I am attesting to is the individual dog makes a massive difference in the training result that is this dog makes me look a far better trainer than I am...where this dog just does it with ease, other's don't if that makes sense :)

[Santo66]

If training of trainers were less political and more technical I think we'd see an improvement in ability overall. It's actually very simple, but the simple stuff gets overlooked. Throw in a bit of emotional stuff ("I can't let him get away with that", "I don't want to reinforce the wrong thing", "it's stressful to withhold a reward", "dogs aren't dolphins/chickens/pigeons" etc) and you're suddenly well off track

I think this is true of training in general not just when it comes to the use of +R. IME far too many people allow their emotions and politics to get in the way of effective training.

CORRECT Your posts are too sensible Huski, behave please :laugh:

[Aidan3]

But if there is a rabbit running, or a possibility of a rabbit running, somewhere in the vicinity - any food or toys (or even affection for that matter!) may as well be on Pluto... Doesn't matter if on or off leash. I can have a smidgen of attention, but redirecting that prey drive?? Nothing is more rewarding to them than that potential chase. That is far more engrained than anything else.

Of course this is true, but in the longer term a properly constructed reinforcement history will overcome that.

To a point yes, but it will never be as reliable as a dog with greater genetic focus for handler induced prey which can be determined in puppies at 6 to 7 weeks old and becomes part of common puppy selection process in a working dog.

I would be the last person to suggest that all dogs have equal potential.

[Alyosha]

Huski I think the Mals would have a different level of human interaction to most sighthounds though wouldn't they? Sighthounds being high prey drive and also independently minded to degrees that vary from mild to extreme.

Mine will call off live prey too. But only if past the initial massive drive & energy burst (ie starting to tire, prey drive lessening), and if there is some greater incentive. That incentive is rarely reward - with my dogs that is. Because nothing I could offer is even close to as rewarding as a gallop or a chase.

But they will come back for a negative - being left behind. They are pack focussed, once I call and walk away they will come.

I think if they lived in suburbs with little exposure to small fluffy things running it would be different, but I would find it pretty sad to redirect their love of, and reward from running into something else anyway.

There was an old saying about training an Afghan to fetch an inanimate object, the dog's way of thinking - "Why would I go and get that? I can't eat it, and if it was so valuable you wouldn't have thrown it away in the first place!"

Sorry - OT. Back to proper training advice!