Pre-desexing Tests.

[Nekhbet]

Sorry to hijack, but Nekhbet, could you please elaborate?

I too, have a 10 month old young lad and we have been debating when to get him "snipped". No real urgent need, as we are on large acreage, he is behind secure fencing with no bitches (entire or otherwise) nearby and all our other dogs are desexed, but why do you suggest waiting until 18-24 months old? I'm presuming development, is this physical development, pyschological development, or both?

Our vet said 8 months, but with xmas etc, he hasn't been done yet.

The hormones released from the maturing sex organs also contribute to growth and development. The two males that I had desexed I severely regret. My rottweiler was one of them, I wish I had left the testosterone to help build his bones and muscles. Yes he had severe HD/ED but removal I think made it worst.

Oh, he was the only one you could consider a PITA when the girls were in heat and the one that picked the most arguments. Not the entire dogs.

I don't frankly prescribe to the story of every dog escaping because a bitch is in heat. I have two bitches in heat at the moment and an entire male. There is no whining, breaking down doors, carrying on etc because I do not allow it. I've had entire males and bitches together for 10 years and never had an accident, destruction, noise etc. It can be done quite easily.

As for desexing, a bitch will go a fence post if she's hormonal enough. If the neighbours bitch breaks out take her to the local pound so they might learn, or call the council and report them for a roaming dog. I don't change my dogs for other people's lazyness. You should see the idiot dog I have to live with next door, some AmBull thing trying to rip down my fence because the girls are in heat (well more then usual). They come put him inside now as soon as he makes a peep ... trained them better then the dog.

[Dame Aussie]

I agree nekhbet. I've had a girl in season here and my dog couldn't care less. Never had a dog try to get at her either

[Esky the husky]

That's sad but very interesting Dyzney.

I wonder if it could almost be a different scenario for those heavy muscled breeds to be desexed early, would the muscling develop differently without ever having been exposed to the same levels of testosterone?

I know that there are studies done on the skeletal changes but I haven't seen one on the muscle before. If I mentally compare to cattle (which I try and do as there is such a visible example of the physical changes brought on by desexing - steer vs bull) then I can imagine the muscle difference. Is it not much discussed?

If desexed early, it just never develops. An early desexed (let's say 6 mth old male rotti) just does not develop this hormone based muscle, so nothing to lose. So it would appear somewhat similar to the dog desexed after 18 months, except the younger desexed one would be significantly taller, possibly drier (less skin because the skin never grew to accommodate a bigger head) and usually less substantial all over.

Neither look anything like the entire version, however the later desexed one be slightly closer to it.

Same with bitches, but obviously less so exaggerated because they don't have the same strength of head and overall body muscle.

Your bull/steer analogy is a good one.

It is no discussed enough unfortunately, though is becoming talked about more and more in our breed among the working folk.

But it is a tricky thing because the majority of breed enthusiasts in my circle (except for me) are showies first and foremost and most of don't deal a lot with desexed dogs and most are definitely not working them. The majority of the desexed rottis are in pet homes and few of these are around to talk about it and they are unlikely to be competing in agility, herding or dog sport.

There are a few of us that are really interested in the topic and chat about it often.

That's really interesting, I've often wondered how much of Esky's 'problems' are caused by early desexing. ( 7 weeks)

Like you say she is much taller than most sibes, and more heavily coated although I believe the coat just down to her having the recessive gene.

She has seriously no muscle on her hind legs and requires a lot of stretching before any forced excercise otherwise she seems to pull up sore. We were recommended to up the amount of meat / egg based protein in her diet. But she seems to just have gotten heavier and not really improved on the muscle front.

I'm not desexing Fritz, my bullarab unless there is some very very good reason to do so.

[*kirty*]

I wonder if with bitches you could have the uterus removed but leave the ovaries, like they do with women?

[Rebanne]

I wonder if with bitches you could have the uterus removed but leave the ovaries, like they do with women?

yes you can

[Dame Aussie]

I wonder if with bitches you could have the uterus removed but leave the ovaries, like they do with women?

Yep, you can :)

Snap rebanne!

Edited January 11, 2014 by Aussie3

[Nekhbet]

I wonder if with bitches you could have the uterus removed but leave the ovaries, like they do with women?

There's a veterinarian in the USA who was advocating desexing but leaving one ovary in the bitch. It would produce more then enough of a maintenance level of hormones for the bitches life without the risk of pyo.

Trick is finding a vet who wants to do it and you trust wont just zip out the whole lot. I asked, none would. One said the only way was removal of everything or it's not considered a spey ... where's eye rolley when you need him ... ummmm no uterus no pregnancy last I checked.

[Dame Aussie]

How ridiculous! :laugh:

[Simply Grand]

So what if it's not "considered" a spey? I agree, ridiculous, fine to say it's not something I'm comfortable doing but why not at least consider it?

[Rebanne]

I mentioned it to my vet a few years ago but when I got Fern desexed I had forgotten about it.

[Dame Aussie]

So what if it's not "considered" a spey? I agree, ridiculous, fine to say it's not something I'm comfortable doing but why not at least consider it?

Yeah, I wish vets were more open minded about things like this.

[ash1]

Sorry to hijack, but Nekhbet, could you please elaborate?

I too, have a 10 month old young lad and we have been debating when to get him "snipped". No real urgent need, as we are on large acreage, he is behind secure fencing with no bitches (entire or otherwise) nearby and all our other dogs are desexed, but why do you suggest waiting until 18-24 months old? I'm presuming development, is this physical development, pyschological development, or both?

Our vet said 8 months, but with xmas etc, he hasn't been done yet.

The hormones released from the maturing sex organs also contribute to growth and development. The two males that I had desexed I severely regret. My rottweiler was one of them, I wish I had left the testosterone to help build his bones and muscles. Yes he had severe HD/ED but removal I think made it worst.

Oh, he was the only one you could consider a PITA when the girls were in heat and the one that picked the most arguments. Not the entire dogs.

I don't frankly prescribe to the story of every dog escaping because a bitch is in heat. I have two bitches in heat at the moment and an entire male. There is no whining, breaking down doors, carrying on etc because I do not allow it. I've had entire males and bitches together for 10 years and never had an accident, destruction, noise etc. It can be done quite easily.

As for desexing, a bitch will go a fence post if she's hormonal enough. If the neighbours bitch breaks out take her to the local pound so they might learn, or call the council and report them for a roaming dog. I don't change my dogs for other people's lazyness. You should see the idiot dog I have to live with next door, some AmBull thing trying to rip down my fence because the girls are in heat (well more then usual). They come put him inside now as soon as he makes a peep ... trained them better then the dog.

Thanks Nekhbet, I respect your opinion. This is the first dog we've had that wasn't already desexed before we got it (rest of dogs shelter dogs), so I think I'm just going to leave him be for now. No point putting him through an op if it's not really necessary and we have no reason to desex him at this point. If he knew what we were discussing, I'm sure he would be sending you big doggy kisses right about now! :laugh:

Edited January 11, 2014 by ash1

[Simply Grand]

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Edited January 11, 2014 by Simply Grand

[Steph M]

Everyone makes valid points well worth considering and I certainly have plenty of food for thought on the matter but I think it still needs to be done. We would like to get to 12 months, that's ideall!

I'm also finding it difficult to arrange day care or day minding for him if we have work done in the house. In the next few months we have a guy coming to repaint the decking, another to replace a door and a few other little appointments. If neither of us can stay home I tend to put them both in daycare etc rather than leave them inside as I wouldn't want the gate to be left open, and frankly I don't want the poor tradie surrounded by a pile of soggy toys and licked to death. I know its a training thing, but nonetheless. It doesn't make that any easier.

There's also the great wart debarcle. Its 50% a consmetic issue (and I'm over people asking what it is!) And 50% that its a pain in the bum. Its pretty big and obtrusive and its come to the point where he knocks it in play and it will bleed a fair bit, to quite a lot which is fine for him, it causes no pain, but there's only so diligent you can be with the betadine really and coming home to smeared blood everywhere becuase it is truly amazing how he can spread a mess!

So that would be coming off at the same time and I'd rather not have him under twice if it could be avoided.

Another lesser reason is I'm noticing the change in other dogs reactions to him. The last few weeks we have had several dogs have a go at him out of nowhere down the beach and park. I thought he must be being a cocky twit the first time but after that one went into the water to have a go while he was swimming to get a stick, another while he was just trotting next to me watching Rosie and the dog came from behind and again when we were getting in the car and he was quietly sitting at the passenger door, again from behind. I know there's likely other reasons but it has come on fairly quickly and I can only think of one common denominator other than they've all been males.

Dogs hardly ever bother him, and he just shrugs these off and still wants to chat with the next dog which is a total effing blessing but it can't go on like it is and if that's a possible cause then it needs to be explored.

I don't think we are cut out to own entire animals, and thats OK.

Not everyone is and the procedure is in place for a reason, so it does have to happen for us and we will certainly hold off until we are sure and for as long as we can but theres been some really good advise here so far. Go brains trust!

Edited January 11, 2014 by Steph M