Innotek Dog Collars

[Anna H]

For my dog to sleep through the lowest levels of stim without a stir, would to me, indicate that she is not being at all hurt.

It's been said many times before, but who in their right might is going to spend in excess of $600 to abuse their dog?

To me, using the stim is like tapping her on the shoulder, actually I think the stim would be felt less than a tap... except with the stim I know that I can get her attention when she is 500metres away from me.

I work with level 2, I think you would be hard pushed, to find too many people who even feel this level on a 15 levels collar.

*Edited to add... yes, I have tried this collar on my neck at the working level

Edited April 30, 2005 by ChelseasMum

[pgm]

You may have good reason to use that collar, but I'm just trying to say that putting these things on your arm, leg, or even neck could be quite deceptive in comparison to a dog's neck and what a dog experiences.

Yes it could be deceptive, but guess what? People who use these collars also, believe it or not, closely observe the behavior and reactions of their dog.

If one can reasonably say that a dog enjoys being patted based on observation of their behavior and reactions, one can say with the same degree of reasonableness when and if a dog is experiencing pain. In both cases one is making these claims based on observation.

Those who have not felt or observed these collars being used are basing their assumptions on ignorance.

PS. Afton you haven't been asking questions, your mind is already made up, your comments reflect your ignorance.

[Rusky]

our neighbours just installed an innotek fence for their dog who was chasing cars up the shared driveway.

The dog used to come over here barking at mine, also other next door setting off the swf's big time, drove me nuts. The dog drove all the neighbours mad, we complained, they put in the fence.

I personally would have prefered a real fence but they don't really boundry me, we are semi rural.

I haven't seen the dog over here since they put the fence in, she still barks at passing cars on the driveway but doesn't venture out.

I really am a hater of electrical, or chain or prong or whatever cos in the wrong hands they can be a disaster.

The dog got out first day cos they had it set too low but even too low she wouldn't venture back in. Took a bit to catch her and remove collar and get her in. They told me, I wasn't involved. They left it on that setting anyway.

I am pleased they have the fence, it works for the dog, just I am wondering if they might get an extra collar for the toddler. :rolleyes:

[EddyAnne]

I am pleased they have the fence, it works for the dog, just I am wondering if they might get an extra collar for the toddler. :rolleyes:

G'day, Eddy here.

I think that quite a number of people would want to have a chat with the parents of the toddler.

[Rusky]

The toddler wanders, frigtens me to death, toddler chases cars too, not so much now the dog can't get out. :rolleyes:

[Guest afton]

pqm

PS. Afton you haven't been asking questions, your mind is already made up, your comments reflect your ignorance.

Sorry wrong again

Yes my mind is made up but wrong I did ask the questions are you a dog? to establish how do you know what the dog actually feels and Do us humans have the same skin, sensitivity to the same stimuli as a dog? to see if there is a difference.

And infact someone has responed with how they remember reading info about a Federal Court Case involving Innotek which said that a dog is about 40 times more sensitive to this stimulai than a human which infact answers my question regarding the difference between human and dog skin and their difference in the sensitivity of this stimulai.

Kind Regards,

Afton

[pgm]

By the way, I remember reading something somewhere from a Federal Court case involving Innotek, that based on the experimental data a Mr Collins mentioned the pulses of current flowing through the neck of a dog most probably would be in excess of 20 milli-amps, and as a reference the perception for current in humans is around 0.5 milli-amps. So from what Mr Collins mentioned I assume what a human perceives as a static tingle might be most probably perceived by a dog in excess of 40 times that of a human.

Afton, the conclusion to this statement is without evidence. Its says the current flowing through the neck of a dog is about 30 milli-amps - it says absolutely nothing about what level the dog PERCEIVES. Humans perceive current at about 0.5 milli-amps - we know this because we can ASK a human what they feel. With a dog all you can do is observe their behavior and reactions.

It absolutely does not follow from what is said above that dogs perceive in excess of 40 times that of a human. But you would know that if you had ever witnessed a dog being trained with these collars - the very idea is completely absurd, nobody but somebody without experience would even consider the absurdity of that statement.

BTW not that this or anything else will change your a mind, but Mr Collins was a witness FOR Innotek against the RSPCA. Innotek won the settlement against the RSPCA for making false and misleading claims regarding electronic collars.

[EddyAnne]

G'day, Eddy here.

Interesting pgm that you mentioned "Mr Collins was a witness FOR Innotek". Also I find it interesting that you mentioned "Innotek won the settlement against the RSPCA for making false and misleading claims regarding electronic collars", and seems that Innotek won on the majority of points presented in the court case but then the court mentioned something where Mr & Mrs Holliday of ("Orion" & "Innotek") that they had to pay Dr Wirth a total of $30,000, so maybe some points were not won by "Orion" & "Innotek".

Anyway I'm not going to mention my views or opinions any more for now but include copy and paste of some parts of the court transcript which various people might want to read, and I'll even include the part about "the question was whether the level of 'pain' produced could be justified" and even the RSPCA and check chains, and as you know some people do have different views and opinions on these, anyway some transcript parts:-

67 He went on to deal with "electric shocks", and said:

"An electric shock is caused by an electric current from an external source passing through the body. The shock is the discomfort or pain the body experiences when this current flows. Generally the higher the current level the greater the "shock". Some areas of the body are sensitive to current and the level of discomfort (pain) can be great even though the current level may be low.

The greater the separation between the entry and exit points for the current the greater the value of the body resistance. For a given voltage level the greater the body resistance the lower the current that will flow (refer to the equation 1 above)."

68 Mr Collins concluded his report by observing:

"Based on the experimental data, summarised above, I am satisfied that the pulses of current flowing through the neck of a dog most probably would be in excess of 20 milli-amps. If the surface of the skin were punctured or lacerated then I would expect that the total impedance could even be less than 100 ohms. Should this be the case than [sic] the current pulses could be far greater than 20 milli-amp. Again I have no test data on animals to support this opinion. As a reference the perception for current in humans is around 0.5 milli-amps.

With the current pulses lasting for 600 milli-seconds and with a value in excess of 20 milli-amps the animal would most probably suffer high level of distress ... It is recorded that a dog's heart is disturbed when it is exposed to currents as low as 0.06 to 0.1 milli-amp. This is the lower threshold for heart disturbance. ...

Consideration should be given to the possible duration for receiving the electrical shock. With the collar around the neck and the electrodes contacting the skin the dog would be unable to withdraw from the source of the shock. When a human experiences a shock the first reaction is to withdraw and remove the source of the shock. The collar would not enable the dog to reduce the level of the shock. ..."

114 Innotek readily acknowledged that the term "cruelty" is an elusive concept. It accepted that it was open to Dr Wirth, and others, to hold, and express, the opinion that electronic dog collars are "cruel". Other experts could honestly and reasonably hold different opinions.

115 Innotek contended, however, that, notwithstanding the subjective nature of the concept, "cruelty" could be assessed to some degree objectively. This could be done by measuring the amount of pain inflicted.

116 The respondents accepted that the mere fact that a method of training involved the infliction of a measure of pain did not render it cruel. The RSPCA itself recognised that "check chain" or "choker" collars, products which it sold, could inflict pain. It also accepted that dogs were often trained by being hit with various implements, including rolled-up newspapers. It condoned the use of electric fences to keep dogs and domestic animals from straying. It also condoned the branding of horses and cattle with red-hot irons. Plainly this involved the infliction of pain. None of these techniques had been the subject of a "campaign" of the type which it had waged against electronic dog collars. Presumably they were not regarded as "cruel".

117 Innotek accepted that it would be cruel to cause pain to an animal without good reason. At the same time, it submitted, there were circumstances where it would be appropriate to inflict a measure of pain in order to preserve the life of an animal or to protect its welfare. It all depended upon what was reasonable in the circumstances.

119 Innotek did not deny that the collars produced an unpleasant sensation, and one which could reasonably be characterised as "pain". Indeed, it contended that the collars would be worthless if they did not do so. The question was whether the level of "pain" produced could be justified, having regard to the benefits which the collars offered.

120 Innotek submitted that the evidence established that, in some cases, the only practical means to save a dog's life was the use of an electronic dog collar. Some dogs were at risk of being put down unless they stopped barking. Others were at risk of being killed by traffic unless they were prevented from straying. It was obvious that electronic dog collars could be used in a cruel manner. However, in any such case, it would be the misuse of the collar which would be cruel, and not the collar itself.

[Axel]

Axel has had an e-collar on him once before, and i must admit, when testing him to set the correct level on the collar, it was put up to well over half way, and the whole time he laid there, the first sign of reaction from the collar was, he looked up and turned his head to see if someone touched him. That was the setting it stayed on.

Correctly used, the collar is not about ZAPPING the dog. its about giving the dog a stimulant, or feeling. the dog associates the feeling with unwanted behaviour and gets praised with wanted behaviour. It is good for ooflead training and doesnt need to be used for the rest of the dogs life.

Containment systems, are a great this as well. I had electric fencing, but Axel learnt how to win with it. He barged through it, even though the fence was on, he knew how to beat it. and once he beat it once... he kept beating it.

He would go next door and chase their ducks. Until one day the neighbours put him in a cage in their backyard and waited for me to come home i went to get him and they showed me the ducks he got... they said if he ever goes over there again they were gonna shoot him.

SO into his kennel he went. Our fencing has always been adequate for all our dogs we have had in the past. However Axel has a high prey drive and will do what it takes to chase things. that includes climbing, jumping, digging. Although I dont have one yet, I can see why people would use containment systems, they are in no way cruel or harmful to the dog.

The dog learns the warning beeps are followed by an unpleasant NOT painful stimuli and therefore stop at the warning beeps. I have seen dogs know not to go within the 1 metre distance of the fence, i have seen their balls, treats etc role into the containment area, and the dog not even bother attempting to get up and get them cos they know.

its not like the dog will continually be stimulated by the sensation. Most dogs will feel it at most 3 times, before working it out and never feeling it again.

Id rather my dog receive a few unpleasant (NOT PAINFUL) sensations than be run over, shot, or killing livestock and poultry.

I have resorted to Axel being in his concrete run whilst no one is home to be outside with him whilst out. however he gets walked, swam and taken to offleash dog park everyday. for some people, they dont have the time to do that and i think it is more cruel keeping a dog that gets out of any fencing locked in a kenel than using a containment system.

my two cents.

AFTON:

I have yet to read a constructive reason as to why you dont like them. It is perfectly fine that you dont like them, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Just annoying when someone slams something when it is clear they know little about it, have not opened their mind to both sides before forming an opinion, and cannot give any valid reasons as to why they do not like it, do to of course the fact they dont know much about it at all. Sounds to me as though you have formed your opinion on this, based on what someone else has said to you. not your own thoughts.

If RSPCA said all dogs are now to be thrown off bridges, would you do it??

not everything the RSPCA says, and not all their opinions are highly regarded and not al of them should be taken as gospel either. yes they do a good job protecting animals, but unfortunatley, like in the off topic thread about Hungry Jacks, there are too many do gooders in this world stuffing things up that have been around for years, and in fact have gotten safer, yet. some minority group will come along and say we dont like that, or a 1 in a million case goes wrong and before you know it its banned, or there is a law to go with its use.

Karen.

[Guest afton]

Hi Karen,

You are mistaken when you think I have made my decision based on what the RSPCA says and there are things they do I don't agree with. I don't agree with the use of electric shocks, zaps (what ever you want to call it) on dogs to get them to do what you want them to do, that is my opinion, I have never done it and never will. It's that simple. I just don't like them. I'm not arguing that they have not shown benefits in solving problems. That's not the issue for me, the issue is the use of electricity to get it done.

People don't have to agree with me but I don't have to agree with them either.

I fing the court case very interesting though.

Kind Regards,

Afton

[Axel]

Afton;

Scenario for you, you have a fenced in yard,as 'dog proof' as you can possibly get it. but you have a dog that continually climbs the fencing, digs out, jumps..however it gets out it gets out, running out onto main roads or killing livestock or the like.

what would you do to keep the dog in?

[Nadia]

I have had cause to use a bark collar here, and would again. Better that than a baited dog, or a dog released from its yard by idiot neighbours.

I feel the same way about the containment fences, having a problem dog who will kill livestock if he escapes. I would him recieve a zap/tingle whatever than get himself into big trouble.

If my dog escapes I am irresponsible, if I use a containment fence I am cruel.

If my dog barks I am irresponsible, if I use a collar I am cruel.

If I can't train my dog without using these I am an idiot or am lazy.

If I rehome the dog, I am an uncaring breeder.

Seems I can't win.

To those of you who have no problem dogs, no problem neighbours, great, good on ya!

The rest of us do the best we can, and the best for our dogs and our situation.

[EddyAnne]

Afton;

Scenario for you, you have a fenced in yard,as 'dog proof' as you can possibly get it. but you have a dog that continually climbs the fencing, digs out, jumps..however it gets out it gets out, running out onto main roads or killing livestock or the like.

what would you do to keep the dog in?

G'day, Eddy here.

Meanwhile what is the dog owner doing during the time the dog is trying to climb fences and dig under, maybe inside tapping away on the computer too much and not providing what that dog needs.

[KitKat]

Afton;

Scenario for you, you have a fenced in yard,as 'dog proof' as you can possibly get it. but you have a dog that continually climbs the fencing, digs out, jumps..however it gets out it gets out, running out onto main roads or killing livestock or the like.

what would you do to keep the dog in?

G'day, Eddy here.

Meanwhile what is the dog owner doing during the time the dog is trying to climb fences and dig under, maybe inside tapping away on the computer too much and not providing what that dog needs.

Or maybe...just maybe... the owner is....oh....WORKING? or trying to get the 7-8 hours sleep a person is supposed to fit in?

As much as i would love to be with my dogs 24/7 it just isn't possible, my dogs aren't allowed inside (oh yes wait this makes me a bad mum to start with blah blah blah) as i rent. I also need to work that that we can all eat and can stay in the house with the huge yard.

And as i said in a previous post...i walked him for at least 1/2 hour a day, we did training two nights a week, we played for all that he isn't overly toy orientated...but he was still escaping as it had become a game to him...gee should i have tried to take him to work? i would have loved to...but my boss wouldn't have been appreciative.

[EddyAnne]

Or maybe...just maybe... the owner is....oh....WORKING? or trying to get the 7-8 hours sleep a person is supposed to fit in?

As much as i would love to be with my dogs 24/7 it just isn't possible, my dogs aren't allowed inside (oh yes wait this makes me a bad mum to start with blah blah blah) as i rent.  I also need to work that that we can all eat and can stay in the house with the huge yard.

And as i said in a previous post...i walked him for at least 1/2 hour a day, we did training two nights a week, we played for all that he isn't overly toy orientated...but he was still escaping as it had become a game to him...gee should i have tried to take him to work? i would have loved to...but my boss wouldn't have been appreciative.

G'day, Eddy here.

Sounds like maybe the present environment may not be suitable for that particular dog, so maybe consider changing the environment. Plus I feel that some others could provide some info on things to provide environmental stimulation from various activities that the dog could do inside the yard.

Some dog owners do live in rented premises where their dogs are allowed inside, there the dogs can be with their owners sharing a close life together. If the owner of the rented premises won't allow dogs inside the house, maybe consider finding another rented premises that will. If this is extremely difficult to find in your area then maybe consider moving to a more accommodating area.

Some dog owners certainly do work 40 hour week, and during this time the dog might need some companionship from a suitable dog, person or even another animal. Is there a relative or friend in the area who could look after the dog whilst the owner is at work, maybe someone to pop in on a regular basis to take the dog for a walk. In area where there is a demand these are now popping up, is there one in the area, and from this address:-

http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/commo...%5E2682,00.html

The Advertiser

17 April 2005

Now it's time for doggy daycare

LIKE most daycare centres, there's lots of playing with toys, getting messy in the sandpit and running around – except these "children" are dogs!

Pampered pooches craving exercise and companionship are having their needs catered for at what is believed to be SA's first day care centre for dogs.

The Holdfast Dog Centre, on a former bowling green at Hove, accommodates up to 20 dogs a day in a fenced 1700sq m area.

The latest craze in the US, the facility is the canine version of a childcare centre where dogs are looked after between 8am-6pm when their "parents" are at work.

The growing number of owners who don't have time to look after their pets is the main reason the Holdfast Bay Dog Owners Association opened the centre with the help of Holdfast Bay Council.

"There are some with separation anxiety issues, most with owners who work full-time, as well as single people who don't work anymore but don't want to leave their dogs home while they go shopping or to appointments," says association senior trainer Karen Molloy.

"These days everyone works so hard and when they get home late they may not feel like taking the dog for a run or a walk.

"The dogs are so absolutely exhausted after a day that they just flop into bed when they get home . . . they couldn't handle five days a week."

One regular client visits from as far as Kangaroo Island during their owners' shopping sprees, while Lulu, a 19-month-old groodle (golden retriever and poodle cross) has been travelling from Aldgate twice a week for a year.

Lulu's "mum", Clare Michell, who works at Flinders Medical Centre, said her pet was like a family member and she didn't want to leave her home alone.

"My partner and I both work full-time and I didn't like her being left alone for extended periods of time," she said.

"She used to chew the irrigation and dig holes when she was bored, but she doesn't do that now."

The day is split up into organised activities including a "cat nap" indoors in airconditioned comfort, ball games and even massages.

Naughty dogs are separated for a 10-minute "time out" but all are vetted before they can join up, with staff gauging their behaviour in the group for half an hour.

Behavioural problems stemming from small backyards, apartment living and time-poor lifestyles are the focus of forums being organised by the Local Government Association and Dog and Cat Management Board.

Ideas include councils setting up a database of people who can walk pets and more daycare centres. But Australian Veterinary Association SA division spokeswoman Dr Jenny Weston said owners needed to train their dogs from the time they were puppies to be happy alone.

"I have a number of dogs on drugs for medication for separation anxiety," she said.

"There are horror stories of people coming home to find ripped walls and doors, it can be really devastating.'

Anyway I feel there might be something like the above in your area, if not then it maybe a good business opportunity for someone. As to Brisbane where you are, well I even spotted this news item not too long ago where the Regional Partnerships Program (RPP) was providing $138,000 funding to a dog day care centre in Brisbane known as Happy Tails, and is run by the Help Enterprises organization and staffed by people with disabilities, maybe you might consider this if happen to be near you, and here is what I spotted from this address:-

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Breaking-New...2182276048.html

[KitKat]

Sounds like maybe the present environment may not be suitable for that particular dog, so maybe consider changing the environment.

So i should give up the place with the fantasically large fenced yard because my dog can escape?

Plus I feel that some others could provide some info on things to provide environmental stimulation from various activities that the dog could do inside the yard.

My older dog, who wears the collar, is only interested in toys, games etc if my younger dog is playing with them, and then only for a limited time. I will not chance a spat by giving the dogs food to keep them occupied since at the times i'd be doing that i wouldn't be there to supervise.

Some dog owners do live in rented premises where their dogs are allowed inside, there the dogs can be with their owners sharing a close life together.

Indeed they do...however i don't and i'm fine with that as my dogs are generally outside dogs for all that i have housetrained them. I would have to say my cat probably wouldn't be impressed if the dogs were inside more often. Also if i turned around to any rental agent and asked if i could allow my two 40kg dogs inside on a regular basis i'm likely to be laughed at.

If the owner of the rented premises won't allow dogs inside the house, maybe consider finding another rented premises that will.

So once again i should move house? i spent a lot of time and money finding a house that would suit me and my dogs, in an area that gave me everything i needed, eg public transport, near family, large yard etc etc I'm not giving it up unless i absolutely have to.

If this is extremely difficult to find in your area then maybe consider moving to a more accommodating area.

Great...now that i have a car i could indeed consider moving to a completely different area...if i didn't already have a house that suits me and my dogs. Considering how much it costs to move these days it's unlikely i will do so just because my dog can escape...or are you suggesting my dogs should stay inside when i am not home?

Some dog owners certainly do work 40 hour week, and during this time the dog might need some companionship from a suitable dog, person or even another animal.

Harm has companionship in the new pup Bronx if it comes to that.

Is there a relative or friend in the area who could look after the dog whilst the owner is at work, maybe someone to pop in on a regular basis to take the dog for a walk.

The only people i trust with my dogs also work much the same hours as i do...and personally i'm not sure i'd put on them to walk two 40kg dogs each day...besides...i walk my dogs at night anyway.

As to the doggy daycare...that's a big fat no from me...apart from the fact that putting my two boofers in that each day each week would send me broke, i'm not willing to put my dogs in contact with dogs i don't know and people i don't know on a daily basis. Not to mention that i'm not sure they'd be open at the times i'd be leaving for work.

Cripes...all this to change my mind about a collar i have no problem with using? I looked into all this stuff before turning to the zappy collar, i weighed up the pro's and cons and it was the best way of dealing with the issue...neither myself nor my dog have any problems with this solutoin.

[Steve K9Pro]

Do us humans have the same skin, sensitivity to the same stimuli as a dog.

So how can you say for certainty that it doesn't hurt them simply because it doesn't hurt you?

By the way, I remember reading something somewhere from a Federal Court case involving Innotek, that based on the experimental data a Mr Collins mentioned the pulses of current flowing through the neck of a dog most probably would be in excess of 20 milli-amps, and as a reference the perception for current in humans is around 0.5 milli-amps. So from what Mr Collins mentioned I assume what a human perceives as a static tingle might be most probably perceived by a dog in excess of 40 times that of a human.

K9: if the collar was fitted & the level the dog was trained with was determined by the pain threshold of the handler, I may well agree with you, but as its notg, its not even slightly relevent.

There are two reasons why collars should be put on your own arm first, 1. would be to show you that;

at the point where current flows, which will be determined by your bodies electrical resistance, there is no pain only a tingle.

the second would be to remove the myth that pain must come from these collars.

The level the dog is trained at, using my method, is where the DOG can just percieve it. Nothing to do with the level I can just percieve it.

How do I know where that is? by the dogs reaction. I can stim a dog thats half asleep & they will simply scratch like a flea bit them or less.

**********************

For those who wouldnt use one, I cant see where anyone is asking byou to use one.

Each time someone seems to post about a remote training collar pro, those against electronics jump to a containment system flaw, then acuse people of not spending enough time with their dogs.

Wow, some people have agendas....

[Guest afton]

Hi Axel,

I too use to rent but as the environment wasn't suitable for the dogs I placed them in borading kennels until my circumstances changed by me finding suitable residence.

I'm now on acreage but did have problems with my dogs chasing things so when I wasn't able to be there to control them I would put them in their pens and let them out when I was there.

I would also do individual long lead training (use a long lead eg. venetian cord) with them and place them in situations where they would try the undesirable behaviour and when they tried I was able to control them both in voice and physically (as they were still on a lead). I tether or confine (in pens) dogs when I am away if they have a tendency to wander. This is only done with the one that wanders as it will teach the other one to do the same undesireable behaviour.

That's just what I do anyway.

Kind Regards,

Afton

[pgm]

I would also do individual long lead training (use a long lead eg. venetian cord) with them and place them in situations where they would try the undesirable behaviour and when they tried I was able to control them both in voice and physically (as they were still on a lead).

Afton, why would you do this? Surely you realise that an ecollar causes less discomfort, with next to no chance of injurying the dog than does a long line?

Why on earth would somebody who is prepared to use a long line on a dog in order to train be concerned about the dog's sensitivity to discomfort or pain?

If you were so concerned, this would be a reason to investigate the ecollar - for it will cause less discomfort and less stress to the dog than will a long line.

[MonElite]

I would put them in their pens and let them out when I was there.

Cant you see that for some people and dogs it is not an option?

People work full time so the dog is alone at home for 9 sometimes 10 hours in a day. Add 8 hours for sleeping, two hours after meal (so they dont get bloat) that means 20 hours a day in a pen. What kind of life a dog will have, locked up basically all the time?

At least in a yard there are things to be looked at, birds to chase, people going pass to bark at etc.

BTW I dont have a containment system and I dont have a problem with my dog escaping.

I also dont have a problem with use of one if necessary.

Long line - yes I use the long line. For now I got bruises and burns on my legs and hands from use of it. Dog obeys on line the moment I unclip it he knows my control is finished. Maybe my dogs is smarter than yours, it certainly learned to be perfect when that long line is attached. How effective is your long line at 100 meters considering a dobe can travel that distance in seconds, and frankly it is not far away.