What's So Bad About Using Force In Dog Training?

[Simply Grand]

For sure, the reward doesn't have to be food, it just has to be something the dog finds rewarding in order for reward based training to work. Training concepts are the same regardless of what the reward is.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

What's an EH?

I'm not going to win an argument about physics. Except maybe nuclear physics. Was reasonably good at that.

Willem - you seem unfamiliar with what "reward" means and who defines it. If a dog is not food motivated it's either too well fed or the human is using the wrong reward.

I have been told that a certain dog is not "food motivated" but had it working very hard for the right food. Eg won't work for roast chicken but will work for crisps - especially if I eat the crisp on a failed attempt... ie dog gets the task right - dog gets crisp, dog fails - I get crisp...

Dogs get very excited about working in that situation.

But it's not a reward if the dog isn't interested in working (changing behaviour) to get it. Doesn't matter what the stuff is. Food, toy, game etc.

You also seem unfamiliar with something called "transfer of value"... where some how the game (or the cue) becomes as rewarding as whatever you used to train the game initially.

[Willem]

What's an EH?

I'm not going to win an argument about physics. Except maybe nuclear physics. Was reasonably good at that.

Willem - you seem unfamiliar with what "reward" means and who defines it. If a dog is not food motivated it's either too well fed or the human is using the wrong reward.

I have been told that a certain dog is not "food motivated" but had it working very hard for the right food. Eg won't work for roast chicken but will work for crisps - especially if I eat the crisp on a failed attempt... ie dog gets the task right - dog gets crisp, dog fails - I get crisp...

Dogs get very excited about working in that situation.

But it's not a reward if the dog isn't interested in working (changing behaviour) to get it. Doesn't matter what the stuff is. Food, toy, game etc.

You also seem unfamiliar with something called "transfer of value"... where some how the game (or the cue) becomes as rewarding as whatever you used to train the game initially.

wrt 'EH': German-English ...sounds a little bit like 'Hey' without the 'H'...(just a verbal cue)

wrt reward etc.: there might be the right reward out there for this dog...but they (owner, instructor) are still looking for it...

[The Spotted Devil]

When your working Spaniel goes hunting without you...you need a good recall. And here's where transferring the value comes in because nothing on this planet compares with live game in terms of reward value.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1563406503954387&id=100008551569765

[The Spotted Devil]

The thing is, if you want your dog to make great choices at a distance or in high arousal states (or both!) then you need to a) initially set up the dog in scenarios where they are highly likely to make the right choice, and b) gradually increase the level of difficulty where you have distractions BUT can still control access to the reward if they fail. As per Susan Garrett I actively set up scenarios where they fail - the dog's response as Corvus so well said is to remain in a "positive emotional state" because the dog is so excited to have an opportunity to try again. They didn't get the reward but that's it. They soon learn to do what I want and you get what you want and this becomes a normal part of life instead of a battle. In Gundog training I've taken it to another level....get the dummy (long cold channel swim) and you get the short easy mark on real game. And you need to take the cheese I offer (as opposed to spitting it out) before you get the game again. And even if you'd rather retrieve dummies you don't get to do that until we've played tug together...

Edited June 11, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[Papillon Kisses]

I'm not sure what your last post is supposed to mean Kavik but as a current lecturer on the NDTF course who has been heavily involved in content changes over the last few years, I'd just like to advise anyone here that the course has seriously evolved and changed in recent times.

Has it changed much since 2007?

[Willem]

When your working Spaniel goes hunting without you...you need a good recall. And here's where transferring the value comes in because nothing on this planet compares with live game in terms of reward value.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1563406503954387&id=100008551569765

...sorry, I get the message 'link is broken'?...I'm still resisting to surrender to Fakebook, so that could be the cause too

[Willem]

"Force free" is not a literal term, Willem. ;) That's pretty much the end of the story.

I train for positive emotional states and improved welfare. How I get there depends on what I've got to work with, but adding aversive stimuli is typically counter-productive for these goals. I am not a brilliant trainer, and so I don't always get the results that I hope for. It is a risk when making decisions for another being that you cannot easily communicate with that you let your own shortcomings dictate the options available to you and feel justified in whatever decision you make as a result. It is easy for this to become a cycle you never break out of. I used method x, because I could see no way to use y, and x worked well. I will use x again in future because y is too hard. To grow as a trainer, you have to be prepared IMO to always push the envelope and seek ways to use y, and when you do use x instead, that is not where things end. You revisit again and again as your skills grow and think "Was there a way to use y after all?" Why y? Because it's the fastest, easiest route to positive emotional states and improved welfare of course.

I think you would like Pukka's Promise: The Quest for Longer-Lived Dogs by Ted Kerasote...I still have 200 pages to go...

[JulesP]

When your working Spaniel goes hunting without you...you need a good recall. And here's where transferring the value comes in because nothing on this planet compares with live game in terms of reward value.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1563406503954387&id=100008551569765

I've lost the border collies a couple of times...and then I turn around and they are sitting right behind me :laugh:

[Willem]

Yes the high pitch tone of a whistle or call does help cross distance, the recalls for my three ("Quinny come!" "Saxsaxsaxsaxsax" and "rileyrileyriley") are all delivered in a high pitched tone that is horribly annoying even to my own ear. Works though.

I start all recall training with a high pitch "pup pup pup pup pup" which all dogs seem to instinctively respond to and head toward from as soon as they can hear and walk. Then the next step is to always, always make coming to me a rewarding experience. So distance and ability to physically control the dog don't really come into play.

aaah!...negative reinforcement via removing noxious stimuli following correct behaviour :laugh: ...only kidding...

...I actually noticed this morning that most of the time I already whistle (mouth) when recalling her, especially when she is further away...she comes flying like a rocket and if she is close enough so I don't have to yell I use verbal 'place' or 'finish' with the particular hand signal (if I want her to sit by my side)...and yeah, some of the recalls at the beach might be even further than 200 m. Interestingly, the further she is away, the snappier the recall is. If she is out of sight and I don't call her, it takes approx. 30 seconds till her head pops up and she checks out where I am. When she is more than approx. 150 m away and I don't call her it won't take long and she comes closer by herself - I guess that's her herding traits.

Eta: ...refined wording...

Edited June 12, 2016 by Willem

[Willem]

I actually agree with Bob Bailey who says that novice trainers should not be taught to use punishment. Learn how to apply positive reinforcement PROPERLY (ie mechanics, splitting vs lumping, rate of reward, differential reinforcement) before you apply principles you don't fully understand. Yes, severe punishment can permanently suppress behaviours but if you are continually having to give verbal or physical corrections the dog hasn't sufficiently learned the appropriate response. It's actually very inefficient.

For the record my PhD is on human-dog relationships, dog behaviour and welfare, I work with livestock and companion animals and I've trained 100s of dog owners. I have the only Agility Champion Dalmatian in the country, my ESS is a rare example of a positively trained working and competition Gundog and, after the Agility Nationals last week she's now the Novice Agility 400 National Champion. And I still don't think I know enough about the minutiae of training to consider using punishment as part of my methods. Am I a perfect trainer? No freaking way - unfortunately I'm human and had my early dog training influences to overcome. But I know the path I'm on not only gets results but is probably the most FUN I've ever had interacting with dogs.

I really don't like to debate training methods on the Internet as I'd rather spend that time doing other, more constructive things. Seriously, if you think your training method is the "right" way, take video, post it up, be proud of your technique rather than going around in circles. Saves a hell of a lot of time wasting. This is how I train:

wrt the video: @ 1 minute: ...if someone wants to experience the difference between 'herding traits' and 'retrieving traits' - such games are a good way to find out :D

[The Spotted Devil]

When your working Spaniel goes hunting without you...you need a good recall. And here's where transferring the value comes in because nothing on this planet compares with live game in terms of reward value.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1563406503954387&id=100008551569765

...sorry, I get the message 'link is broken'?...I'm still resisting to surrender to Fakebook, so that could be the cause too

Fixed - sorry :)

[The Spotted Devil]

When your working Spaniel goes hunting without you...you need a good recall. And here's where transferring the value comes in because nothing on this planet compares with live game in terms of reward value.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1563406503954387&id=100008551569765

I've lost the border collies a couple of times...and then I turn around and they are sitting right behind me :laugh:

Ha! That's brilliant! Not something that happens here!!!

[Cosmolo]

Yes. The course has changed a lot.

[Willem]

When your working Spaniel goes hunting without you...you need a good recall. And here's where transferring the value comes in because nothing on this planet compares with live game in terms of reward value.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1563406503954387&id=100008551569765

...sorry, I get the message 'link is broken'?...I'm still resisting to surrender to Fakebook, so that could be the cause too

Fixed - sorry :)

thanks - yes, recall over a long distance doesn't seem to be a problem if there is a strong bond between handler and dog. I don't think that it is just a technical perfect recall training that get you there. I assume it is the handler itself who becomes the appetitive stimuli (or to whom the 'value is transferred') if there is a strong bond.

[Willem]

I just did some training with her and also played the take-it/leave-it game with the flirt pole. And I noticed that, when I allowed her to catch the lure and play tug of war, that the force involved (MRB would say that the dog applied the force, however physics tells me the force can only occur if I counter the force on the other side) is actually much higher than what I would apply when correcting her.

She is not a heavy BC, just 17 kg, but pure muscles, bones and tendons. When she pulls the lure, jerks and shakes her head - my 11 year old daughter would have problems to counter the forces involved....and it is pure play for her (the dog)!...it just shows me that the force I use(d) - 'used' because I rarely have to use leash pulling to correct her now - is / was still far from pain inflicting abuse. Force is just another form of communication when used this way.

Eta: ... of course others are eligible to disagree...

Edited June 12, 2016 by Willem

[Kavik]

It depends on how SHE interprets the correction - it does not necessarily depend on how strong the correction is objectively but how it is subjectively felt by the dog. Some dogs are more sensitive to correction than others. How much force she likes to exert while playing tug is NOT indicative of the amount of force needed to correct her.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Kavik

[Willem]

It depends on how SHE interprets the correction - it does not necessarily depend on how strong the correction is objectively but how it is subjectively felt by the dog.

it is / was meant as a correction, if I don't get this message to her I'm doing something wrong - like all the dog owners who get dragged behind their dogs for years: they still apply respectively counter the same force via the leash, but the message was never picked up (not from the dog owner and not from the dog :) )

[Willem]

It depends on how SHE interprets the correction - it does not necessarily depend on how strong the correction is objectively but how it is subjectively felt by the dog. Some dogs are more sensitive to correction than others. How much force she likes to exert while playing tug is NOT indicative of the amount of force needed to correct her.

...should have waited :D ...

agree 100% with the red highlighted text - but agree only partly with your last sentence. Playing tug should give you a good indication about how the dog responds to force applied - that's the context of the game! The challenge wrt correction is to start with the right force (not too much - not to little) with the objective to reduce it to zero. I communicate with my dog via the leash - a very gentle tug (like someone pads you on the shoulder) is now enough to get me her attention.

[Kavik]

No, the context of tug and correction are very different!