Working Kelpies/ Bordercollies

[Carrathool]

Have you guys had any problems regarding your dog's herding instinct and how your dog relates to other dogs? Like a dog with a lot of eye or one that crouches, has this caused problems in dog-dog interaction?

Sometimes we do but only with our bitch she's very dominant! sometimes but nice most other times! LOL

[herding_guy]

THanks for the welcome Kelpie-i. It has taken me a little long to find this forum hasn't it. I don't have much time to sit at the nerd these days ..a little busy with dogs.

Nice to see some familiar names.

Dave.

[Guest cloverfdch]

Have you guys had any problems regarding your dog's herding instinct and how your dog relates to other dogs? Like a dog with a lot of eye or one that crouches, has this caused problems in dog-dog interaction?

As a pup Elvis used to herd everything, especially when playing in big groups of dogs. He has grown out of that now, and wont do it too often .

Elvis was also a fairly agro puppy, he did not like other pups and only got on with the Flyball dogs (Some of). He is now great and i am happy to say can meet strange dogs onlead well 95% of the time. He does not like be around entire males that he does not know and gets very grumbly .

As for crouching that has never been a problem with other dogs thank goodness.

So are you looking for a kelpie or BC or do you own one or two or three......they are addictive. I'm going to have to get patches to stop me bringing the m home, hee hee.

Hi Dave welcome aboard . I have one working bred BC, from Depplers/ Gallpens lines. He is a lovely boy. I am also currently researching working/ trial bred BCs and Kelpies, as i am looking at getting another dog in the next 12 - 18 months, i will most likely go for another BC, i adore them.

I will email you about the training day.

Edited August 25, 2005 by cloverfdch

[TigerJack]

Hi Wally2020

Kobe is now 16 weeks old.

Here she is at 12 weeks

[TigerJack]

Wally2020

So far I have just been doing general obedience training with her. She is very quick to pick up something but then only does it if she feels like it. OK at home but ignores me if there are other interesting dogs around. We are getting better though. Her recall is great when she's paying attention but hopeless with distractions. So far she has gone to watch flyball training, too young to do it yet. Our team had all our dogs in one off leash yard at a comp recently. We also had Kobe and her half brother Cobber there as well. All the flyball dogs were watching us, waiting for the ball to be thrown. The two litttle kelpies were facing the other way, in a crouch, herding their own dogs around the paddock. Very funny.

The ears have come up and look like staying up. She might grow into them eventually.

Jo

and here is Kobe at 16 weeks, photo taken tonight.

[kateshep]

......................

Edited January 17, 2006 by kateshep

[mjk05]

I personally feel that Hook pen makes it easier for poor casting dogs, my dog is one of the worst casting dogs around if the sheep are standing freely out in the paddock or arena, but as soon as put them in a pen he will cast wide.

A Three Sheep Trial is meant to show the best DOGS out there.

I think that the current setup for letting sheep out is fine, there is no disadvantages to letting them out his way unless your dog cuts in on the cast or stops short and then it is not the sheeps fault, it is the dog that is at fault

Hi Wally- that's my initial impression too. I'm just a regular spectator ATM, but to my uneducated eye, the really nice casting dogs seem to do a good job with the current set-up system (which I'm going to assume is the same across the states- gate and flag-ropes to keep sheep straight).

Maybe it would be nice for Encourage or even Novice competitors to have an easier cast, but the Open dogs seem to cope okay, don't they?

I wouldn't complain personally if they brought the hook-pen in across the board, because I think at least one of the dogs I hope to trial will be like yours- wide around a pen, but too close casting without it. It seems easier to use the pen as a prop or cue when training, and surely would be helpful for weaker casting dogs to have it in a trial.

But I suspect it would make the running of a trial significantly slower and more difficult, and our current system seems to be working OK.

[mjk05]

Have you guys had any problems regarding your dog's herding instinct and how your dog relates to other dogs? Like a dog with a lot of eye or one that crouches, has this caused problems in dog-dog interaction?

Nope!

Generally when all our dogs run together, they are all "working" each other, and there will be a big string of dogs, each one "working" someone else, and simultaneously being worked. So they all get used to being harrassed by other dogs, and learn to cope.

My cattle dog helps to teach them manners, too- he gets worked by everyone, something about him just screams "sheep" to any BC or kelpie we meet. He is very tolerant, but if they get too forceful with blocking him, or try to grip- he will let them know what he thinks , and they generally don't do it again

Photo in my garden of the 3 lads permanently attached to my cattle dog's bum- everywhere he moves for his ball, he has M working him, followed by J working M, and G working either J or M

But most of the dogs don't really "work" the other dogs like they do sheep- they might do the crouch and stalk thing, or try to block them, but its different to real sheep, and all the dogs seem to know it.

At the dog park or at agility training, we often get bunches of BCs working my cattle dog +/or each other, and occasionally the cattledog will run straight over a sheepdog who tries to block him getting his ball, or he will nail one for gripping. Very rarely a strange dog has objected to being "worked" by a group of sheepdogs, but usually they don't seem to care. The sheepdogs mainly want to "work" dogs which are intense and focussed (eg chasing a ball)- not dogs plodding along or just being dogs- and the "ball chaser" usually is so focussed on the ball that they don't care about the sheepdogs.

I have occasionally seen other dogs get excited by the sight of an intense focussed dog (eg a kelpie or BC focussed on chasing a toy or "herding" another dog) and have seen some fairly aggressive moves where non-herding breeds launched at a dog who hadn't even noticed them. Usually the sheepdog just outruns them and avoids them, but a few times it has got nasty.

I think that is to do with fast moving INTENSE dogs, rather than the crouch or eye- usually the dog being attacked hasn't even seen the other dog, and is focussed on their own game. You see this in agility too- some dogs get repeatedly chased and set on just doing agility, because of their intensity.

[wally2020]

Hi TigerJack,

What a cute puppy,

the obedience will come with age, are you going to try sheep with her at a later age or not.

Wally2020

[Vickie]

Square flanks-

Best way to picture this is to imagine a circle around the sheep. A square flank moves along the path of that circle, rather than in an oval shape. The distance of the circle from the sheep will differ with different sheep in different situations.

I think (hardly an expert, though ) of square flanks as being MORE than going around the circle. The dog should actually move out further from the sheep as it goes to flank- so if you draw the circle round the sheep, and then the dog's path- it has more square corners.

This is one I'd like to hear some discussion on.

I just found a book I really like. Derek Scrimgeour - Talking Sheepdogs.

In it he says this:

"Square flanking is a description I often hear used to describe a good flank. I believe this is misleading. Certainly the dog must not tighten on the sheep when he flanks. I also believe that he must flank the sheep in a round shape maintaining constant contact & attention.

When your dog starts his flank the first few inches are crucial. With the correct round shape the sheep will be watching the dog but not scared enough to move away. If your dog loses eye contact with the sheep they will feel that he has lost control - and they will be right.

Square flanks are less trouble but may induce a feeling in the sheep that your dog is a little bit weak. They may stop or start to challenge him. Tight flanks can be ruled out as they are not useful in any case. I will contradict myself here, though, by saying that in exceptional cases a square flnak can be a very useful tool to have in reserve - with shedding for instance when you want the sheep to feel they are not being controlled.

I have a special command that I use to ask for a square flank but this is only trained after teh dog has settled into a routine where round flanks are the norm."

Comments anyone? Some of the dogs I see up here are very square and as a result do seem to have trouble moving the sheep at times and often seem to lose contact. LOL, we have the opposite problem, but seem to be getting it under control.

[smisch]

Well, back to the original topic 'what do you do with them'

My neighbour has a border collie X Kelpie (coal) who I think they were saying they got him off a farm. And before I got snoopy I used to walk him alot and we used to do everything, mostly fetch and agility on the play equipment. He loves to just be out there and in the world doing doggie things, Christmas came and he decides to be a good sport and dress up. I was planning to do agility with him excpet I now have my own dog whom I need to work with so that idea went down the toilet. But being a working dog he loves to do anything especially run, the thing that gets me most is that he doesn't know when to stop and have a rest. Anyway attached below is the photo from christmas hope you like it!

[hopenfox]

Such an interesting thread to read. I would so love to do some herding with my dogs, but have no idea where to start (don't know anyone who herds or who owns sheep near me).

Anyway I have a black and tan Kelpie called Fox and a blue merle and white Koolie (Hope). We train and compete in Agility, Obedience and Flyball and have been to one herding workshop earlier this year which we all REALLY enjoyed. I have never seen Fox so excited! Hope has only ever been around ducks, so it took a little while and a lot of encouragement before she realized sheep were herdable too!

Have you guys had any problems regarding your dog's herding instinct and how your dog relates to other dogs? Like a dog with a lot of eye or one that crouches, has this caused problems in dog-dog interaction?

I've never had any problems, except maybe when my two are 'stalking' eachother, they're often totaly oblivious to other dogs. Sometimes I catch them frozen in a crouching staring competition that goes on and on and on, only broken by a sudden noise or playing dog, and they'll snap out of it and go roaring off play chasing together.

[TigerJack]

Wally 2020

yes I aim to take Kobe along for a look at sheep herding in September. I'm going with some friends. Should be fun

Jo

[Vickie]

I so want to see you guy working - the photos look excellent, you will have to let me know when you enter your first trial 

LOL, well, you want to see her work, but I am the obvious handicap. The clinic I recently did with Bernard Arends was awesome. Watching her work in the hands of someone truly talented was a really amazing experience for me.

Not wanting to come of the head is a training issue - these people need to do more off-balance work with their dogs - it can be overcome with training.

I see what you mean about this. The dogs I am thinking of are just being started now, so I guess what I am referring to is what is naturally in the dog, rather than a training issue yet.

Natural break is when the dog will naturally keep giving ground on its stock without being asked. For example the dog is constantly reading its sheep and breaking out . 

I understand what natural break is, but I still have a hard time getting my head around the reasons for it. Can you describe situations where & why the dog would need to give ground? Does it mean that the dog is too close? I am still struggling with understanding the picture of the dog giving ground & leading the sheep towards an obstacle. It just doesn't make sense to me. In what situation is this required in on a farm situation? I need to get to some trials & watch & learn & talk to people more.

I will describe an exercise we do for three sheep trialing:

Handler with sheep in front and then dog in front of sheep working the head - handler is pushing sheep onto the dog.  Now dogs with natual break will keep giving ground and stay on the head, however, they won't close on the sheep they will keep going backwards or arcing backwards (without tail turning) this is natural break that is bred into the dog.  Break can also be trained its just not as natural or pretty to watch  - not all dogs will break naturally and it does not make them any less a dog.

I will try this exercise & see what happens...although I suspect I know . I'm pretty sure there is NO natural break in Trim. I'll let you know.

Edited August 26, 2005 by Vickie

[Sparty]

it is nice to see your dog work well ... it is just a shame Bodie works so much better for Denise than me

but hopefully as i learn to read the sheep better it will improve, also i was thinking at this point i dont trust him very much yet so 85% of my attention is on him, 5% on the sheep and 10% that i run into anything (family history of total clumsyness)

[Vickie]

Can you describe situations where & why the dog would need to give ground?  Does it mean that the dog is too close?  I am still struggling with understanding the picture of the dog giving ground & leading the sheep towards an obstacle.  It just doesn't make sense to me.  In what situation is this required in on a farm situation?  I need to get to some trials & watch & learn & talk to people more.

I had a long chat with someone today about this...and I think finally understand it & the situation it would be appropriate in.

some pics I took today:

http://www.pbase.com/zenotri/27th_august_training

have a look at this 13 week old kelpie, she's going to be very talented:

Edited August 27, 2005 by Vickie

[Kavik]

I resized some photos today!

Here is a rare one of Zoe relaxing in her favourite corner of the yard

[Kavik]

Here is one at my parent's place showing she CAN be social with other dogs when she wants to The old dog is Belle my 15 yr old cocker cross and the Beagle is Robbie who my parents had for a little while. They had had him about 2 weeks when we took the photo.

[fidelis Border Collies]

Can you describe situations where & why the dog would need to give ground?  Does it mean that the dog is too close?  I am still struggling with understanding the picture of the dog giving ground & leading the sheep towards an obstacle.  It just doesn't make sense to me.  In what situation is this required in on a farm situation?  I need to get to some trials & watch & learn & talk to people more.

I have seen this at 3 sheep trials where there is a huge draw back to the flock but that is the way you need to move the sheep so the dog controls the sheep by going backwards.

the sheep is walking towards the dog and the dog gives ground but is still in control and stopping the sheep from bolting back to the flock, when the sheep are required to stop or change the direction the dog puts on more pressure and doesn't give ground.

Tracey

[Vickie]

WOW Kavik, Zoe has the loooongest legs. She is lovely. I don't think I've seen pics of her before.