Maile Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Hi. I am currently having 2 10 weeks old pups (Whiskey and Shayla), and I find it extremely difficult to train them. 1. When I train Shayla to come and sit, Whiskey will come and steal her treat. Therefore, I am really not sure if the behavior is reinforced. 2. Because I am having trouble training one when the other pup is there, I resort to ask my OH to hold one of the pup in a different room so that I can concentrate just on one pup. However, the other pup will start yelping and whining loudly the moment he/she lose sight of the other one that the pup that I was training with will not concentrate and whine as well. Both of them do not seem to want to be separated. PLEASE HELP!! I am getting increasingly stressed because I seem to be getting nowhere!! I want to train them other skills as well such as 'down' and 'heel' but how can I when they do not want to be separated even for 3 seconds??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozzie Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 It is difficult when you have 2 pups as they get very attached to each other rather than you. May I ask why you decided to get 2 pups at the same time? You have to spend time with them individually, and seperate them occassionally so they learn to be alone- at first for short periods then lengthening. While you are working with one, leave the other with a kong or pigs ear or even a chicken wing, whatever they like and will keep them distracted, then swap. You can even feed on their lunch in the laundry and train the other one, then swap. Once they are both doing whatever you teach them alone reliably, they will do it together however when teaching new things it will be a while before you can teach together. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 We have 2 10 month olds and it is still hard to train them unless one is away but they are ok when seperated - and they have only been together since they were 8 months they are very attached to each other but we started them out having time out each and it has worked I would strongly suggest that you start seperating them now or you will end up with 2 dogs who can not be apart Get a crate and crate one while the other is training or tie one up They will learn quickly and if you keep the training short and only finish on your terms (ie not cos they are sooking) then you should be ok, you just have to be strong at the start!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maile Posted May 18, 2006 Author Share Posted May 18, 2006 It is difficult when you have 2 pups as they get very attached to each other rather than you.May I ask why you decided to get 2 pups at the same time? You have to spend time with them individually, and seperate them occassionally so they learn to be alone- at first for short periods then lengthening. While you are working with one, leave the other with a kong or pigs ear or even a chicken wing, whatever they like and will keep them distracted, then swap. You can even feed on their lunch in the laundry and train the other one, then swap. Once they are both doing whatever you teach them alone reliably, they will do it together however when teaching new things it will be a while before you can teach together. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along soon Hi Lozzie, The reason we want two dogs is because we want them to keep each other company when we are away to work/uni. Thanks a lot for the tip! I will try it very soon and will let you know how it all work out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maile Posted May 18, 2006 Author Share Posted May 18, 2006 We have 2 10 month olds and it is still hard to train them unless one is away but they are ok when seperated - and they have only been together since they were 8 months they are very attached to each other but we started them out having time out each and it has workedI would strongly suggest that you start seperating them now or you will end up with 2 dogs who can not be apart Get a crate and crate one while the other is training or tie one up They will learn quickly and if you keep the training short and only finish on your terms (ie not cos they are sooking) then you should be ok, you just have to be strong at the start!!! Hi shoemonster. Thanks for the tip. I have tried to crate one up when I train the other one. The problem is that the one in the crate will start squeling and yelping non-stop and I really do not want them to think that the crate is some sort of a punishment. BTW, I have tried to train Shayla earlier with Whiskey in the crate, after 1 minute he poo-ed in the crate because he was too upset!!! I am so upset because both of them have yet to pee or poo in their crate and I really do not want them to start toilet-ing their crate! I need more suggestions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaywoman68 Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Is there any way you can return one of them? I know it sounds really mean to separate them cos they seem to be attached to eachother but from what your topic title says, you can't handle 2 at once. The reason we want two dogs is because we want them to keep each other company when we are away to work/uni. I'm not sure it was a good idea to get 2 puppies and leave them by themselves while you're not home, especially the fact they're so young. They seem inseparable from what you've mentioned so it's likely they've bonded as a pack which will make it REALLY HARD to train them. ETA: I got my 2 dogs at different times even though they're similar in age. I got my 1st 'kid' when he was 7 weeks old and my 2nd 'kid' when she was 5 months. By then, I've had some time with my little boy (1st one) and he knew some basic commands. My circumstances changed and that's when I decided to get another dog. I knew I couldn't handle 2 at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maile Posted May 18, 2006 Author Share Posted May 18, 2006 Well kaywoman68, they seem perfectly fine with themselves. That is why a crate is invented. Its not like I leave them for hours at a time. If you couldn't handle 2 at once, it doesnt mean that others can't. I seriously don't find you helping at all. If you cannot offer support and suggestions, I suggest you do not post here because it is just a waste of space and time, just like you did in "Puppy Class/Training in Melbourne" at the Puppy Problem section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozzie Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Vivien- I think kaywoman68 is just concerned and not trying to offend you. Anyone who has had one puppy knows how hard it is in the first few weeks/months, let alone having two puppies to work with, not to mention 3 young dogs if Ginger returns (and I am sincerely hoping she does) I think the first thing you have to work with is making them happy to be seperated. I agree that the crating may not work in your circumstances. I think the best way to do it is to make sure both of them are having fun with humans seperately. How old are they? When you start lead training, maybe you can take one for a walk and have your OH stay home with the other and pay special attention to it- playing/treats etc. Split them up, only for 5-10 minutes at first and then longer, just making the individual time special so they learn that being apart is not a bad thing. Ignore whinging, let them know it won't get them attention (in the case that one is shut off somewhere) I think for now, besides the basic sit, I would be working on keeping them happy when seperated. When you have achieved this, then you don't have to worry about the sooking and can train them seperately for longer with more advanced things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maile Posted May 18, 2006 Author Share Posted May 18, 2006 Is there any way you can return one of them? I know it sounds really mean to separate them cos they seem to be attached to eachother but from what your topic title says, you can't handle 2 at once. kaywoman68, I wont be returning one of them. I am already so attached to both of them. If you ask me to return one of them, its like asking part of my soul to be sent away. I am asking for suggestions, not quick fix. They are really very lovely puppies with good temperament. They just need to learn to be separate away from each other for a while and I do think that it could be fixed. They do know their names, learn how to sit and come after 3 days of training but I find that it just take longer than usual to train two at once compared to training Ginger only previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maile Posted May 18, 2006 Author Share Posted May 18, 2006 Vivien- I think kaywoman68 is just concerned and not trying to offend you. Anyone who has had one puppy knows how hard it is in the first few weeks/months, let alone having two puppies to work with, not to mention 3 young dogs if Ginger returns (and I am sincerely hoping she does)I think the first thing you have to work with is making them happy to be seperated. I agree that the crating may not work in your circumstances. I think the best way to do it is to make sure both of them are having fun with humans seperately. How old are they? When you start lead training, maybe you can take one for a walk and have your OH stay home with the other and pay special attention to it- playing/treats etc. Split them up, only for 5-10 minutes at first and then longer, just making the individual time special so they learn that being apart is not a bad thing. Ignore whinging, let them know it won't get them attention (in the case that one is shut off somewhere) I think for now, besides the basic sit, I would be working on keeping them happy when seperated. When you have achieved this, then you don't have to worry about the sooking and can train them seperately for longer with more advanced things. Lozzie, Maybe it is just me, but I do think that kaywoman68 is being very negative and discouraging in this post and the other post (Puppy Class/Training in Melbourne). I really am not looking forward to people asking me like "Can't you return one of the puppies" or "Would you take Ginger back if she returns" because this just really upset me a lot and it really is very very very discouraging for me. It is seriously not helping me, I love my dogs and each one of them, I just need more patience and handy tips. On the other hand, I find your suggestions very useful and am really really looking forward to trying them tomorrow!! Its going to be exciting and rewarding!! I will be updating the progress! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagittarian Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 We have two gorgeous Rough Collie sisters who come to our puppy playschool classes. They are owned by people who are first time dog owners and I have to say, it is a joy to watch these pups and their "parents" develop together each week. It is a challenge to have two the same age - as someone mentioned they do tend to bond with each other rather than their humans. We have a brother and sister who are devoted to each other even after 6 years, but they also are very bonded to us. I really do recemmend that both you and your OH attend puppy socialisation classes of some kind or other together so that you can both develop bonds with both pups. Best of luck. Sags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaturallyWild Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Hi Vivien, as mentioned if you can seperate them to begin with for initial training (using a distraction like something to chew or get the hubby to train the other at the same time) it will make things easier. In your training you will want to preceed every command with the specific dogs name so they can seperate out who is being asked to do what. With the example that you said where you call one and both come and the one not called steals the reward is not reinforcing the right dog. This situation is a good way of teaching the dog its name though, but you have to make sure that the dog you have talked to is the one that gets the reward. With enough repetitions of the other dog coming and not being rewarded it will start to loose interest (may take a little longer as it was previously rewarded) and this is a good point to change over which dog you are instructing/calling. The other important part of your training with them will be to teach them that it is ok to be apart from each other. They are still young so it is the perfect time to start. Do this in slowly longer periods of time that they are comfortable with (use pleasant distractions like food to begin with if needed). If you don't do this it can become a real pain further down the track if they had to be seperated (eg one had to stay overnight at the vets). Like shoemonster said, how you respond needs to happen on your terms, not just because they were crying - sometimes you need to sit it out, as soon as the crying stops you put them back together (this is where a distraction can be useful - if you get there mind onto something else and they forget about their playmate). Best of luck Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maile Posted May 18, 2006 Author Share Posted May 18, 2006 Sags, It sure is a challenge to have puppies from the same age, I do find myself frustrated sometimes when they are happier playing among themselves than coming to me when I call them. But I do enjoy watching their wrestling sessions. You're right. I need to book into puppy classes really quick now, they need to learn that there are other playmates which are just as fun and cute other than themselves. I've definitely been looking around for the right puppy classes and obedience clubs because the previous one I had with Ginger wasn't really that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagittarian Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 ViVien If you haven't received my pm or email feel free to give me a call at the shop and I'll give you contact details for the flyer. Sags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Definately go the obedience classes as soon as you can And when you crate one to train the other, put a long lasting treat in the crate, this will keep them occupied and it won't be unpleasant for them Also if they are having an episode in the crate, wait til they are quiet to let them out otherwise you are just teaching them that crying in there will get them out (sorry if you know this stuff but it can make a big difference) Good luck with them, but if you put lots of work in I'm sure you will be fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 ViVien: If you couldn't handle 2 at once, it doesnt mean that others can't. Becoming defensive won't solve your training issues. The key to your problem is in the words you used in the title to this topic... training two puppies AT ONCE (ie. at the same time). The the message people are trying to convey here is that one handler trying to train two dogs simultaneously doesn't work. Anyone can train two dogs if they do it separately. In order to train ANY dog, you have to get it to focus on wholly on YOU. In your case, that means removing you and it from the sight and sound of the other pup. Give one pup a bone or something and leave the house if necessary with the other one. Or get your OH to take one for a walk (very rewarding for it) while you stay home and train the other. You can change around after just 10 minutes if you like. You want the one you are training completely isolated from the other and focussed on you. Similarly if you aren't relaxed and focussed on the one dog, your training sessions won't get far. These pups are on their own together all day - that means their primary bond will always be to each other unless you change that. If you want to change it then you have to teach each of them to focus on you and not to worry about what the other pup is doing. Most knowledgeable dog people would never recommend two pups be purchased together. Before you get defensive about that you need to understand why. The main reason is that its twice as much work to train two pups - there are no short cuts to that. Unfortunately, some people [wont' make the extra time commitment required to train both pups properly (ie separately). There's no training in the home if you can't block off the sound of the other dog. The general recommendation has always been to get one pup, train it to adulthood and then get another. That said now you have two pups, you will have to do double the amount the training with them. That's two puppy classes, each with one dog, not one puppy class with two dogs. Personally, if you want to really succeed with two dogs, you need to keep going into more advanced obedience to rreinforce and build on their bond with you rather than each other. There is no way my dog club will accept two dogs from the one family training in the one obedience class. We put them at opposite ends of the grounds or even suggest different training times. We had a father and son INSIST on bringing both their dogs to the one agility class recently. They were strongly advised against it by a number of instructors but insisted that they could do it. There was plenty of attitude and indignation about it too. Three weeks later, only one dog is coming to each class... they just couldn't get the dogs to focus on anything but each other... we did try to tell them nicely. Train them as individuals. Be prepared for them to respond differently and for the need to use different motivators and methods for each dog. That can be a challenge for some handlers. Train them to accept being on their own for some period of time, both at home and away from it. Otherwise you'll end up with two dogs who cannot be separated without stressing them and you out. Same goes for anyone introducing another dog to the house - they need to learn to accept time alone. A friend of mine who failed to teach her youngest dog to accept time on its own now has a dog that can't go anywhere or be left anywhere alone without freaking out. [Edited to make more sense!] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peibe Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 I have not read all through the replys, but when I have foster puppies and we are training, I tie one pup up to the fence, and the other is on a lead focused on me, The one on the fence screams and barks and carries on, and for the first few days it is hard to get anything done and they try and go to eachother, but after a few days of perserverance, they sit quietly and watch what the other is doing. It also makes them learn faster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffyblackpoodle Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 Hi. I am currently having 2 10 weeks old pups (Whiskey and Shayla), and I find it extremely difficult to train them.1. When I train Shayla to come and sit, Whiskey will come and steal her treat. Therefore, I am really not sure if the behavior is reinforced. 2. Because I am having trouble training one when the other pup is there, I resort to ask my OH to hold one of the pup in a different room so that I can concentrate just on one pup. However, the other pup will start yelping and whining loudly the moment he/she lose sight of the other one that the pup that I was training with will not concentrate and whine as well. Both of them do not seem to want to be separated. PLEASE HELP!! I am getting increasingly stressed because I seem to be getting nowhere!! I want to train them other skills as well such as 'down' and 'heel' but how can I when they do not want to be separated even for 3 seconds??? Hi Vivien My husband and I bought two puppies (litter mates) at the same time for the same reasons you have bought two puppies. Yes, it certainly is a lot of work and an extra challenge with litter mates. We found it a challenge to train both boys at the same time, however, it is not impossible. The method we used to teach the basic commands such as 'sit', 'stay', 'drop' etc was to separate them at dinner time. My husband would take one dog outside on the verandah and I would stay inside with the other. As both were hungry for their dinner that is what they were focused on rather than being separated. If your dogs are food motivated (as ours are) and are separted for dinner time, you might start to have some success. We also kept their training sessions very short at this stage, no more than a few minutes. I will add that we were also taking the boys to puppy class during the first few weeks they were with us (they are now 6 months old), so we were shown the method of teaching the basic commands using food. I can tell you that both boys will do what they are asked now when they are together. I wish you the best of luck. fluffyblackpoodle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfgirl Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 Hi Vivien, I am sorry that you have lost Ginger and understand that you must be devastated but don't give up hope. I don't wish to sound negative in any way but have you considered that Ginger may end up coming back to you and have you checked your council legislation as most councils will only allow 2 dogs unless you apply for a special permit to keep more. I have heard so many stories where dogs do turn up weeks and months later. As to training 2 puppies it is alot harder and takes alot of dedication but is also alot of fun. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaywoman68 Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 If you couldn't handle 2 at once, it doesnt mean that others can't. Maybe you should try looking at your topic title! I read through a lot of threads on DOL when i first joined and came to the conclusion I wouldn't be able to handle having 2 puppies at once, no matter how cute or that they would have a playmate when no-one is at home. I have no doubt that people more competent than I can handle 2 at once and I'm sure that with heaps of hard work and commitment you are able to do it too. This is merely my opinion. I really like poodlefan's advice Good luck on your training with Whiskey and Shayla and I hope Ginger does come home to you soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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