huski

Dogs don't need to socialise with other dogs every day. He's not 'missing out' on any dog to dog socialisation if he has positive interactions with other dogs at dog club once a week. Meeting and greeting other dogs is only a very small part of what socialisation is about. Your puppy doesn't need to meet with other dogs every day to grow up to be a dog friendly dog. Sometimes I think there are a few misconceptions about what 'socialisation' actually means and entails.

I don't really use any of our local dog parks, as they are the kind that are fully fenced, small areas and I've had a lot of bad experiences there in the past. If I do take the dogs in, it's when it's empty and just so they can have a run around. I do go to DOL meets fairly regularly, because generally I know the other dogs well.

I noticed your in Perth - how about signing up to an obedience club? They are a great way to socialise your pup in a controlled environment ;) We did puppy school with Daisy, but then took her to our local obedience club too and it was a great way for her to learn not only how to interact with other dogs but to be focused and behave herself around them too. There are a few DOLers who do obedience in Perth that could point you in the right direction You could also check when the next DOL meet in Perth is ETA: Damn, Poodlefan beat me! I completely agree with others who have said the dog park is no place for a pup.

Sounds like a great plan, Bax Just one thing though - we need more pictures ;)

I could see a pointee doing agility! She sounds smart enough too ;)

I wouldn't engage this technique with a baby puppy - remember this little guy is only 8.5 weeks old! There should be no reason to use so much force when training him. I wouldn't be pushing him so hard it was painful or uncomfortable, totally unnecessary at this age IMO. I don't see how putting a baby puppy outside for longer periods is really going to make any difference - in fact I would think it could make any behaviour worse, because they aren't spending time with you inside where you are able to reinforce the right behaviour. The older the pup gets, and the longer it goes without being taught how to behave appropriately, the bigger and stronger he will get and the worse any bad behaviour will become. Bax09 - what a cute pup!! Tan and white beagles are the best ;)

Anita - definitely. Again I'm sorry for misinterpreting you. I get where you are coming from now

Hopefully she won't be like Daisy who would get bored during particularly lengthy sit/stays, and, knowing she couldn't break them, would bark at me like 'come on already. This is BORING' - you just know that other people are looking and thinking that you own the naughtiest dog in class. Soooooo embarrassing

I've only trained at Northside clubs, but I know there are a few DOLers who train at Southside. I'm pretty sure they use a combination of methods. Do you think Kayo Feral would benefit from a one on one session with a trainer first? Or is it more the extra mental stimulation you want to give her by going to a club regularly?

Great post Staranais I suspect the same thing.

Erny, unfortunately that has been my experience too. Actually, in a rather funny example, I was once banned from a small forum for posting a link to TOT - apparently it's cruel to put a dog on a tie out, and to use their hunger as a 'bribe'. No kidding!

Anita, apologies if you were strictly referring to yourself, my comments were based purely on this quote; When I read the above I thought you were inferring that 'smart' training doesn't include physical corrections, that physical corrections don't involve thinking it through. If that wasn't the case and you didn't mean to infer that, like I said above, I apologise for misinterpreting you.

Oh, look, Corvus being condescending. How unusual. Your argument is that you won't use a training method on a dog that won't work on a wild animal. I gave you an example of a training method you wouldn't use on a wild animal, that works incredibly well on dogs, that doesn't involve physical corrections or punishment I don't work with wild animals, so I wouldn't have a clue what works on all of them. What I do know is what works for my dogs - I really don't care if it works on other animals. Funnily enough, 'oh dear, not this argument again' is what many of us usually think when we see you harping on about your hare and other wild animals My point isn't about the misuse of training tools, it was why is it ok for Yin and the people who support her, to be ok with the use of some aversives and not others that apply equal or less pressure on the dog. It was in response to your comment about an American trainer lamenting the aversive methods that she sees other people using. I use the quotation marks because I think positive is a pretty broad a term and not specific enough for the style of training I use. Don't read too much into it now Corvus You can back track all you like Corvus, but your arguments are never just about YOUR dog. It's about your opinion on correctional methods, through your own experiences, and how you feel those methods are stupid, create fear in dogs, and damage the human/dog relationship. Just like you insinuated above when you questioned if I knew what I was missing because I'm not observant enough and don't have your insight to see the damage or lack of magic in my relationship with my dogs. I believe your words were "It's the subtle, insidious stuff that you don't notice until something extraordinary happens to make you realise what you're missing. I highly doubt you've had my insight, seeing as that would kinda require you to at least know vaguely what I'm talking about." But wait, you're only talking about yourself, right? I get the impression that there are a lot of people who post on DOL because there aren't many other training forums left on the net where they CAN post without being attacked over their chosen training methods. I don't go posting on forums with a bias towards positive training and expect that no one will challenge my ideas and opinions. The same goes for DOL

And it's insinuations that those of us who would dare stoop to the lowly and stupid (as Anita implied, people who use physical corrections aren't being 'smart') level of using physical corrections are missing something extraordinary with our animals that really gets me. You can't tell me that your implications above that we're missing something extraordinary with our animals doesn't imply that we have a lesser relationship with them than people who chose not to use correctional methods. Or the way you have been going on about how correctional methods create fear in our dogs - or don't you consider training with fear the same thing as training their dogs with abuse? It's the constant insinuations from "positive" trainers that our dogs are being trained with fear or our training methods aren't "smart" that gets peoples backs up. Funnily, I just like to look at my dog as a dog. I think it's an insult to compare him to animals that he is not. I don't think all animals are the same, what works with my dogs wouldn't work with my cat for the same reason you won't ever see a cat in the obedience ring. I'm never going to slap a leash and collar on a killer whale and get him to do heel work with me, I'm never going to train an elephant in prey drive - you couldn't train an elephant in drive because his brain is wired differently to a dog's, that alone is enough for me to see that their learning processes are different. To be perfectly honest, when I watched Yin's video of the "aggressive" dog the last thing I would consider her method to be is purely positive. Slapping a head collar on a dog and letting it fly and lunge at the end of the leash? Head collars are a pretty aversive tool. Watching it actually made me quite uncomfortable. Why is it that 'positive' trainers will accept the use of some aversive methods but not others? Why is letting a dog hit the end of the leash on a head collar ok but poking a dog in the neck or using a prong collar isn't? For the record, the vast majority of my training is 'positive'. I use reward based methods. With my current training program the closest I'd get to giving my dog a correction is giving her a vocal no reward marker. I don't have a problem with people who feel using correctional methods is not for them, if it works for their dog that's great. The fact is that it doesn't work for all dogs as no one training method ever will. Just as Shell experienced with Zero, more than one "purely positive" trainer told her there was no hope left for Zero and the only option would be to have him PTS - I know you know Shell and Zero IRL and I'm sure you would agree that today Zero is not a dog that anyone would look at and think he was better off euthanised. It's unfortunate if people feel like they can't voice their opinions here, although over the years I've seen many a "positive" trainer come on here and "slam" anyone who uses aversive methods. Just as I can't go on a forum that has a bias towards purely positive training and voice my opinion and expect all the posters there to accept my opinion blindly without argument, I wouldn't expect anyone who voices their anti-correctional training opinion here not to incite discussion on why. ETA: And let's face it - there aren't many forums left on the net that aren't biased towards purely positive training. I'm glad that DOL isn't one of them and we actually see more balanced discussion here instead of a blanket "e-collars, prongs and corrections methods are so cruel and abusive and incite fear in our dogs!111!" with 6 pages of posts all in agreement with the OP. I'm thankful we at least have DOL, it wasn't until I went onto other forums that I realised quite how many take a strict purely positive stance.

Shell would class Zero as having been a 'red zone dog' - would you call how she trained him as coming down hard? Having seen how K9 Force trains 'red zone dogs' in person it's definitely not what I would consider as coming down hard, or using methods that force the dog to comply through serious pain or fear. Isn't Shell's story about Zero proof that it can be done? I don't believe it can only be done in one way, as I'm sure most people here would agree. I hope that you're not implying that Shell's 'missing the magic' from her relationship with Zero as you've described how using corrections did so to your relationship with Penny. I don't know why people who are anti physical corrections of any kind always assume that they have to be incredibly harsh and forceful, or force the dog to comply with you out of fear. It's certainly not been my experience, or perhaps I don't have your insight, Corvus? Unfortunately for my dogs, I've never worked with wild animals, so I wouldn't have a clue what would "work" for lions or killer whales, nor do I care, really. What I care about is what works for my dogs. I would never use more force or punishment than I have to, but I won't rule out using corrections if their use is necessary.

Great post Shell I love hearing Zero's (and your) story. I love how he looks up at you with total trust, you know that's definitely not a dog who is scared or fearful and is one who wants to and is happy to work for you.

What is it about the name Daisy that usually goes quite well with crazy?? He sounds like he has the potential to be a great dog once you harness all that energy, PRS.

Huski, There is a fish market on Logan Road at Underwood, near Pattons Big Gun butchers that sells whole sardines for $6 a kg Thank Longdogs!!! I will definitely be checking that out

Salmon poisoning is only a problem with salmon from the Pacific Northwest of the USA. We don't have any of those problems with the salmon we have here. I've fed salmon heads before but the dogs didn't really know how to eat them. I would buy raw sardines if I came across them but I can never find anywhere that stocks them! So mine regularly get tins of salmon and mackeral instead.

This is the kind of thing that Dr Kilmaten from Animal Options can help you out with, as they are holistic vets and specialise in chiro - so if there is an option other than surgery they will devise a therapy plan for you to follow.

He might be a good at agility, once he has some obedience training and his behaviourial problems are all under control

whoops, double post.

You're welcome. Keep us updated

If they are in Sydney I would drive out to see Steve at K9 Force http://www.k9force.net

I had a search around and found this on the Leerburg site: http://leerburg.com/qaaggres.htm I think this is what I remember from Midol's thread - it wasn't about breaking up a fight (I'd do anything to save my dog too) but about stopping a dog from fence fighting. Not a method I would want to use on my dog IMO.