Steve

That's good - Im sure that's all it was - Ive just been around beagles a long time so it rings some bells for me - you want to see black around her eyes and no sign of red.

I agree with this. First and foremost Im a Mum and no training would enable me to relax with this dog in the situation you are in.

I agree but its systemic not just PR. Hope all of the foster carers have insurance.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it but Im a breeder so probably see things stand out and you cant help but notice. To me clearly the bitch was either on heat or pretty close to it and this may have greatly impacted what happened. Dogs which have been non DA all their lives can change when hormones cut in and may have given the owner little idea that they were capable of escaping and attacking another dog. The guy got bitten/ mauled - call it what you like because he got in the middle of a dog fight and the fight was involving dogs which were powerful enough to do damage. Under the right circumstances I might get bitten and loose an ear from one of my beagles if I jump in the middle of a punch up over a bitch on heat. So it seems everyone wants to put a label on it and find someone or something to blame.I think we should look at the possible causes and solutions. For what its worth here's my tuppence worth. I think we should focus on preventions. Identify the problem. Some dogs end up out of their yards and because all dogs are capable of pack or unexpected behaviour people and other animals get hurt - sometimes killed. There are a multitude of possible reasons and instincts [variables] which may impact and while we may be able to identify some we will never be able to identify and treat and eliminate or avoid them all. Sure because of size or weight etc one dog is more capable of doing more damage than another and this also needs to be given appropriate consideration. Obviously education has its place but Ive met a hell of a lot of dog owners who think they know it all and either avoid education or argue the educators are idiots and they know better - so it may help some but it isn't going to stop it all. There is also an emotional component in the mix and its kind of like when a parent cant see their kids are anything but cute and perfect. Even I am capable of telling you I know my dog and it wouldn't do a certain thing. But Ive been around dogs long enough to know that I shouldnt be too cocky about that. Not really much good talking about how dogs should be selected for temperament when some idiots deliberately select for a cranky dog and it would be impossible to monitor or police. AND even the cutest nicest dogs are still capable of slipping. for me the answer lies in aggressively policing laws which currently stand and house to house checks to ensure dogs on the premises are registered and properly contained.If the fence in the back yard will cater for them but not the one in the front yard the owner needs to have a condition placed on them that their dogs cant go into the front yard off leash etc without the owner facing fines. Off leash laws need to be actively policed and fines issued regardless of the size/breed or whether the dog is aggressive. Councils think they cant afford to do this but id like to see a pilot program to test that as I believe fines and prevention would save em a truckload and easily pay wages. even better where it becomes part of a neighbourhood watch type thing where potential risks were reported so the council could assess and give directions on what needs to be done to prevent a future problem.

Looks blood shot but it also looks that it may be a bit moist with a tear stain. As I said it may be just the way the photo is taken but thought it better to check. Good spotting! My husband is an optometrist and he thinks she has mild conjunctivitis but could be from the flight. We have wiped using a bit of saline solution and it seems to be a lot better today. If it gets any worse ill take her into the vet. I ended up taking her home early because she just wanted to be held and I couldn't. She howled the store down :laugh: Thankfully we weren't busy and the boss loves dogs. I have a few more pics in the photos section :D If I were you I would take her to the vet now and have her eyes checked Beagles get cherry eye and distichiasis - double eyelashes - could be a tear duct thing too - maybe nothing but better to have her cleared now. Do you have any photos of her before she came home? The stain under her eye takes longer than a day or two to show up.

Looks blood shot but it also looks that it may be a bit moist with a tear stain. As I said it may be just the way the photo is taken but thought it better to check.

beautiful ! Might be just the photo but is her eye O.K.? Julie

I like it! Trust Sheridan to be the ultimate practical one!!! Oh, this was after I bought another bed that had legs about two inches high. Ultimately, that even proved to high for the Grump so I just pulled the whole thing apart. He could never manage steps. I love it!

Woo Hoo. You picked a fantastic breeder ! Pauline snatched Master Breeder of the Year Last Year and the stuff she does to get it right is spectacular. That gives you free MDBA membership too!

Just reminding you all about the MDBA awards where you can nominate your breeder or anyone or any other business you bump into who is doing something good for dogs Here Julie

If it was time he wouldn't be sniffing and licking and moving off. He is doing the nose and lips thing and when its ready he wont run off.

Aren't dogs meant to be restrained when they are in cars anyway? Yep on leash when not on their own property.

Gawd Steve I need a maremma.....the only thing my dogs have done to 'help' with a toddler is to teach her how to sneak out the dog door :laugh: Maremma lays across the dog door to block it from the kids.

I sent a pup home to a small town and in one of the houses close by a toddler would escape onto the road .the dog would round the kid up and take it back and block it's way so it couldnt get off the front porch until; Mum worked out the kid was gone again. The whole street loved it and it guarded all of their properties - clearly saw the whole street as its territory but as it got older it wanted to stop anyone it didnt see as its family or those who normally came and went ,recognised the good cars versus the strange ones and wanted to look after more than this street and was standing its ground yelling at semi trailers which dared to use the road the street ran into etc - people didnt like it so much when it wasnt cute any more so she had to get locked up .

there is a difference between a dog defending its turf and its people on its territory to jumping out a car window and attacking people willy nilly when it decides it should.

Thats it.

Alright - one more I was baby sitting some of the grand kids and 9 out of the 15 were here for a sleep over . So Ive got 11 kids and three Maremma who work with the sheep and a mob of sheep in the paddock . We took blankets out and laid on them to look at the stars and tell stories. We didnt notice the dogs or the sheep apart from the dogs taking it in turns to yell at the front fence now and then. When it was time for us to go inside and we went to stand up all of the dogs and all of the sheep were almost right on top of us where the dogs had moved the sheep up to us to enable them to watch us humans as well as the sheep. Kids and sheep all strolled back to the house with the dogs moving ahead to be sure the way was clear. Awesome!

One more. We knew someone who came to visit often enough for the dogs not to care much and one of the dogs would sit on the porch with him and get these nice pats. So one kid is up the back and comes face to face with a brown snake .He jumps up on top of a tank with one dog between him and the snake and he calls us on the phone- come and save us there's brown snake . So hubby and visitor jump in the ute to save him. One dog stays with the snake and the other comes to the gate to see who is coming in. They get to the gate and the visitor jumps out and opens the gate- hubby doesn't wait and drives off fast toward where the kid is. Visitor shuts the gate and starts to run full pelt towards my hubby and the kid area - the dog is barking and the visitor is not stopping he's running full speed ahead ignoring the dog because he knows the dog knows him and thinks all is well. the dog came in front of him and tried to trip him visitor still running side steps the dog and continues on. the dog bit him on the back of the leg skittled him and stood [straddled] over him growling until the hubby got back to him after saving the kid. He rings now to be sure that dog isnt waiting at the gate for him. If there had been one dog there it wouldn't have left the kid but two work as a team and took on what was perceived to be two predators.

I gave up long ago trying to work out what a dog thinks. This might help put it into perspective. 2 incidences. Our neighbour comes and goes pretty often so the dog doesnt react when he comes in. She came up said hello and moved off to another room while he spoke with my husband. Everyone forgot about the dog. The neighbour was telling my husband a joke and on the punch line he jumped up, raised his voice [ a lot] and raised his arm. In a heart beat the dog was on him - between he and my husband , teeth bared, growling snapping - no doubt she was going for him until he sat back down. She then sat for a while and then laid at my husbands feet and each time she got even a hint that the visitor might stand up or sit on the edge of his chair she sat up too and gave a low growl. In that instant she perceived him to be a potential threat and he was unable to enter my property again without terror being inflicted on him to a point where we needed to ensure she couldnt get to him when he came around. Another time- I have 8 kids but 6 are old and 2 are young . I had 6 before I was 25 and two in my 40's so there is 26 years between my oldest and youngest . I had a bitch who was born the same day as my youngest son and she was his constant companion. So eldest son comes home for a visit , the dog knows him and does the snuggle buddy stuff as your dog does and for two days of the visit all is good. Then I'm out walking in the yard with the two year old kid and the 23 three year old kid comes running up behind him, throws him into the air and weee!!!! - isn't that fun! The dog didnt see it that way and before anyone saw it coming she had bitten my eldest son on the back of the leg . Not enough to draw blood but enough to make him gently put the kid down and not move. Well for the rest of the visit she no longer wanted the snuggle buddy stuff from him and as long as when he walked his feet didn't point in the same direction as the 2 year old all was well but as soon as she though he might be going that way the low growl was heard. We stopped that behaviour by keeping the older kid in one spot and bringing the younger one to him so she could see he wasn't a threat and we didn't see him as a threat but we all knew what could be done to the baby and by whom when the dog was on the job. Anyone living in that house could have done the same thing with no reaction but clearly she didn't see the oldest son and as much a part of the family as those who lived with us all the time. This is one of two times in 20 years Ive seen one bite without warning So how do they think - dunno but what you see isnt necessarily giving you any clues on that - its 100% about what they consider a threat to their family and what isnt a threat today may be tomorrow .

Mine know what is normal for the area they live in - anything that's not usual they yell about and scare the daylights out of any visitor. My house dogs know that if I know you or know you are coming that I will give instructions on how to enter the property . You drive through and I greet you at the front of the house and they bark - as soon as I bring you up onto the porch they know you are welcome and shut up. They also work differently when there are more than one - not because they are competing but because they work as a team. With the ones working with poultry or the sheep as long as you dont approach the animals like a bat out of hell all is well and that behaviour of nudging you and acting as if they want a pat etc is about keeping you where you are - This is really obvious if you have ever observed them taming toddlers. When I have young kids here they dont have a clue that the dogs are keeping them confined. When the kids start to move out the nice dog stands in front of them - please pat me, I love you - try to take another step - o Im not moving I love you I want you to pat me and then they sit keeping the kid stationary or slowing bring their bodies around and bring the kid back. No matter what at every level they are watching and protecting and they assess you in a heartbeat and work out what behaviour is best for them to use. It looks like the dogs are keeping the kids safe and probably the house dogs are but its also about keeping the kids from the other things they are guarding. Much also depends on the animals or people they are guarding as well . If for example the chickens or sheep are flighty or give signals they are threatened ever so slightly like a flick of an ear or stamp of the foot etc the dog picks it up and reacts . They have no real desire to get pats from you and show you they love you as you are not their family , their behaviour is about doing the same thing the one barking is - keeping you where you are. if you think the dog nudging you and asking for a pat will hesitate and not grab you if it feels you are attacking its owner I wouldn't bet the back of my leg on it. I believe what you are seeing when you observe them is what they want you to see and the minute you go from gentle visitor who has been here before who isn't bothering the chickens to anything that resembles a possible threat the same dog you think is not so cranky can become cranky. That tail wagging isnt friendly its giving you a chance.

It's okay for a dog to put someone in hospital because the owner is having a screaming match with someone? That sounds like a very unstable temperament. Good guard dogs don't attack at the slightest indication of a threat. They have solid nerves. This fool of an owner gives all of us a bad name... Yep that's my position. Whether it as already declared or not you cant just have dogs on the street who decide for themselves when to attack someone. It is unacceptable.

Good point - if you have, as I have, a bitch who cycles every 3-4 months you could breed her every second heat and probably get in trouble for breeding every heat. If you have, as I have also had, a bitch who cycles every 9-10 months you could breed her every heat and this would probably not even be noticed. ETA: as for keeping accurate records, I'm pretty sure that can be enforced :) They don't talk about every heat in the CC regs or state laws or regs - its X amount of litters in a certain time period. That covers everyone regardless of how often your bitch is on heat you can only breed as often as you are able to. As far as prosecution - from a breeders perspective obviously its a bit of a joke because dogs sometimes do what they shouldn't do, they jump fences and sneak around and do things when you are least expecting it so its difficult to see but the fact is its a law and if someone wanted to push it then you are guilty maybe with mitigating circumstances but its still guilty. I've no doubt if you allowed your dog to throw a leg over out of the time frame more than once your defence would be weaker as well. if we get to a point and it appears we are almost there where breeders need a licence then this would be one of the things which would see your licence removed.

Lets talk about this for a minute. Per NSW . Every dog regardless of where it lives or how its used is required to be microchipped . Working dogs are not required to be registered but they are still required to be chipped. In other words every bitch I own is on the chip details with my council even though I dont pay to register my working dogs. They know how many I own, what sexes they are and their ages. If I have 2 bitches noted on the chip registry and I have more litters than I should with them I am either breaking the law with back to back breedings or I have some dogs which are not chipped - either way Im breaking the law. Of course those who dont have working dogs or who have pet working dogs which Council knows how often I have a litter because I have to chip every puppy I have which goes through them before it is sold. Because Im an ANKC breeder all of my bitches are registered with them and their code says I have to register every pup I produce, so they can see how often any bitch is being bred ,what age she is etc. It is also the law in NSW to keep accurate records on all dogs so at any time you can be asked to produce these records to show what dogs you have and how often they are bred etc.

Clarifying, it is not against the LAW..it is against the rules of the registery in that state, (Dogs NSW). Many back yard breeders mate on the first season and every subsequent one...they provide what RSPCA requires for housing, food/water etc, and never have an issue. They are not charged with abuse, nor are they put out of business, in fact, they thrive much to the exploitation of their animals being used. ANYONE can take a bitch, breed it on the first heat cycle and sell the pups without risk of being charged by a LAW...in VIC, just add a microchip, and all is well with the world. It is ONLY the registries that make these RULES, and they only apply to purebred dogs, in that, by breaking them, the dogs will be ineligible for registrations. Unless of course you're in Vic and have a litter of unknown parentage, and then you'll still get papers on them..but that is another story! It is against the law in NSW and they apply to all breeders and not just registered breeders.