OSoSwift

Sorry I didn't mean to upset you but I get so bloody annoyed when I am told just stomp your feet, make noise, they will move out of the way. Okay so the one moving along the gravel track I was walking along ( the snake was a good couple of metres away and could have easily moved out into the paddock) that kept pace with me whilst I tried to move away on a fenced track and had it's head flattened and turned towards me and made mini rushes at me was just trying too quietly move away from me, silly me thinking anything else! I find these things are often said by those who rarely come across them or live where there are very, very few. I know they don't want to try and bite me to eat me, I am a tad too chunky, I know they don't want to try and consume my horses or dogs, but some are bad tempered!

NOw I live in an area with lots of snakes so I think - for our snakes at least - I am reasonably qualified to share my observations. We have a good dozen snakes that occur around my general area, three main venomous ones where I live. These are the Dugite, Western Brown and Tiger Snake. Generally the browns are trying to actively remove themselves and will only arc up if hurt - stepped on, attacked by something - or cornered - yes even inadvertently such as in the corner of a garage. They will also play possum if you are near them and they can slid under a rock or some solid object, staying their quietly and coming out later one when things are quieter. One day I walked around the corner to be confronted by a 6 foot dugite that our pet Magpie had been trying to drive away. It was pissed and lets say I walked around the corner and it chased me, thankfully there was a corner as those things are bloody fast! Tiger Snakes are reactive, defensive and aggressive. They do not just move out the way if disturbed. Even if you happen to come across one whilst walking they generally won't move, have a really short temper and strike first ask questions later. If you get to close they regularly will "chase" you off. I have seen many many, many, many different snakes not move when I have been out riding my horses and walking my dogs. How they can not tell 650kgs of Clydesdale is trotting near them I don't know, they either don't care or their snakedar is broken! I have been actively rushed by snakes while riding and walking my dogs, even from metres away. I ride through farm trees on our property and scan the ground in front all the time. I have often had to suddenly had to get my horse to move quickly sideways to avoid treading on a snake. Within inches - NO THEY DON"T JUST MOVE OUT OF THE WAY!!!!!! They never have and never will. Some types of snakes will, other won't. They will stay and strike and flatten their heads and rush. Our puppy trotted to the side of the driveway to toilet one day and my husband saw a black head come up from around 3 metres away, rush the puppy and strike at him, luckily just as he moved off so it missed. He was no where near it. These snakes are the reason I will risk training my dogs (those with the temperament I believe will handle it) with a shock collar. We have seen 4 in a day close to our sheds and houses. The work dog runs through tall grass moving stock, he is working in the sheep yards, there is a resident Tiger there. No the sheep in the yards does not drive him off he moves around 5 to 10 metres away and that's it. They look like this http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3766/9259857353_241491853e.jpg Stamping your feet and making noise movement is going to do very little unless the snake close by is a shy one.

Are we using electric collars around the necks of horses and cattle to train them now, the same as ecollars for dogs? I don't think we are? They learn that the fence 'bites'. How strange would it seem to the dog that it gets 'bitten' and can't see any cause, and with an ecollar this bite will last as long as the button is being pressed. ...horse sees fence = pain, dog sees snake = pain ....what's the difference? The horse can run away from the shock but the dog can't because it's attached to them? True but you don't press the button and hold it down for as long as possible do you. One correction, quick then it stops

....indeed, you should ...you could also go to Kinder on Monday playing with the other 5 year old in the sandpit - I'm sure they will be heavily impressed with your new band-aids, or did you just stitched it :laugh: ? Funny you say that, the only bandaids I had were cars ones sooooooo I would have sand pit cred right there!!!!! I really think it is a huge beat up. Should the dog have been there, nope, should the kid have gone to pat it, nope. But hopefully it is a good warning to both parties not to take things fro granted and be thankful it wasn't worse! Oh and I have no bandaid today. Too tough, that's me ;)

I'm not sure whether a dead snake would work at all. I did tracker work for a few years. People I worked with said that dogs got VERY confused by suicides: they follow the track up to near the body and then go wandering trying to figure out where the scent trail went. Dead people don't smell the same as living ones. I would guess the same is true of snakes. Yes that may be so and I have thought about that, but I am willing to try anything that might improve the odds of my dog/s not being bitten by a snake. I don't care if anyone else thinks it's useful or unethical or cruel or anything else. Until they have seen what I have, then I don't give their opinions much weight.

I would use it on my own dogs but only the ones I know could tolerate it in the way I was going to use it to train for snake avoidence.

and what's with this? from the same link "Ms Hungerford said her daughter is at home recovering from the bite today. 'She can't go to kinder so she's is a little upset,' she told 3AW." of course she could have gone to kinder, she has a sore knee, nothing more. Yep. girl made mistake, girl got a nip, girl learned her lesson. Hopefully owner did too. Both at fault. Not a big story. Social media, please move on. Yes no big story as far as I can see. Just trying to get their 5 minutes or fame and some compensation. I got a bloodier would from a little dog who scratched me today. Maybe I should go to the media as well???!!!

and what's with this? from the same link "Ms Hungerford said her daughter is at home recovering from the bite today. 'She can't go to kinder so she's is a little upset,' she told 3AW." of course she could have gone to kinder, she has a sore knee, nothing more. The kid has some bruiding and some scrapes that broke the skin. She didn't have gaping holes or deep puncture marks. What is wrong with people. Breeding a generation of wimps

The only venomous snake I would train my dog on is one that is freshly dead. No way would I risk envenomation during training. Just today I had a snake cover my 5 acres of mowed grass go right past the house, one asleep cat and one asleep working dog and I nearly stepped on it. I do everything to keep the bloody things off my 5 acres and on the other 1995 acres. Thankfully I had just finished riding my horse so all the dogs, bar the working dog were locked up. If not I know my new rescue would have been bitten. I teach all my dogs leave it with a very high level of positive reinforcement. Had I had the time this afternoon said snake would have been used with an e-collar to train my rescue. She came wearing a bark collar that didn't stop her too much, so I am not too worried about fallout from a correction from an ecollar. Now she never wears one as there is no need, but would I use an e-collar to train her? absolutely.

I personally think a correction from a collar, even if it is unpleasant, is far better than dying from snakebite or having to go through the treatment and recovery from one. Would I use on all the time no, would I use in the hope that it does in fact make the dog stay away from snakes, absolutely without a doubt. Once you have been standing there fighting to keep a dog alive while its dying before you, you have been breathing down an et tube to keep it alive as the owners other dogs are ventilated as they crashed first. When you have been up all night at work watching a flat snake bitten dog who is tubed but can breathe but is freaking out so you have to keep giving it Valium and can't take your hands off it, then it goes into cardiac arrest and despit everything you can't save it, then tell me a correction from a collar to teach my dog to avoid snakes is cruel and unnecessary. Are the perfect? no, is there no negative stimulation? no but it's a bloody sight better than dealing with the aftermath of a snake bite.

Depends on a heap of things including what the breeder is selecting for and how small the gene pool is - you dont have to show a bitch to know that she will bring something you want to your breeding program. Exactly. Also location can play a part in that. Pet owners may not want to send dogs back to breeders so they can show them. The breeder choses to not ask so the dog is kept as a pet and not upset by being pulled out of the pet owners home repeatedly. We all know how many posts we have seen from people unhappy that their dog is being torn away from them or being upset etc etc etc. In this case the breeder may be trying to make the best of the situation and trying very hard to keep both people happy. Obviously in this instance it has proven you can please everyone no matter how hard you try. If I had the time and could take it off work and my bitch was going back to the breeder for a litter I would be there, tent or humpy. It would be such a valuable learning experience. I have seen situations where litters have been bred and the bitch has stayed with the pet owner who have felt totally out of their depth and totally stressed about the whole thing and where it has been a complete disaster. If I was the breeder I would want the bitch home for the litter but would return her as soon as was possible.

Okay, I can understand a pet owner not being happy with breeders terms. I do get it. Through most of your posts the monetary gain value of this agreement is what I have seen pop up most. It is obviously a breed in low numbers in this country and with a small number of breeders. Have you ever thought it is not actually about the money? The breeder may want the litter to improve and expand the breed in Australia. She may have not wanted this bitch desexed because she is a valuable addition (in genetic terms) to the breeding pool in this country. She cannot keep them all but when you have a breed that is low numerically it is a tad silly to sell a bitch that is a value contributor to improving and growing a small young breed in the country. You say if you won lotto you would pay her out. She may not give a rats about the monetary income. Her value with lay in the value this bitch has for the breed and the gene pool in this country. I really believe you need to sit down and sort this out with your breeder. These feeling are not going to go away and over time I can guarantee they will get worse. The breeder as Steve said may have offered the tent as she has no spare rooms and knows you will miss your girl and may well think you would like to play a role in the whelping, birth and rearing of her babies. I have no spare rooms so I couldn't offer you one at my house. She may well ask you to drop the bitch off just before whelping then return at 4 weeks so you the owner does not have to be separated longer than is absolutely necessary. She may well have other adults and young dogs the pups will be with to teach them about dog language and boundaries. I understand why you do not like the restrictions, that is why none of mine are on breeders terms. However I do think you are maybe getting a bit to wound up in displeasure and anger and not looking at the picture from both sides. You need to work this out now with your breeder.

I wouldn't have signed one on those terms in the first place. But they aren't all like that. Me neither.

The main reasons I have if are for snake bites ($2000+) Orthopedic work ($2300 for the last one) and major stitch ups. These things are the biggest potential issues I face with snake bites being well up there. I like to know it is a grab the dog and bolt scenario not a oh crap can we afford it scenario if it comes to a snake bite. One after hours stitch up was $500 for a wound that was around 5cm long and a simple skin suture up.

Petplan is one of the most expensive but is currently one of the best from what I have read and seen with actually paying out

I recently have had one of my older dogs diagnosed with a heart murmer. A previous dog I had had a heart issue requiring medication for a good 5 years. What he was on cost a reasonable amount per month and it was recommended we add another drug but at an extra $2.50 per day on top of all the other ones he was on made it too expensive. It's times like that I am happy I have kept hers up even though I really have questioned it over the last couple of years especially considering the premiums have doubled since I first started and I insure 3.

Yep we used to do the bottom of the chest/belly, the arm pits for grass seed issues and the inside thighs for the same reason. Made a big difference but they still had coat and looked as they should but were more comfy :) Actually something similar to this clip is what I generally recommend and have done from time to time on customer dogs as well as my own older dogs. There was also a Border Collie in the class I taught last night who had had this done this week at a groomer too. I have always referred to it as a 'Belly Buzz'. Basically you clip the chest and belly of the dog and between the back legs. This allows the dog to cool off quicker (and the belly can have contact with cool surfaces) but keeps the rest of the coat intact. As for shorter haired dogs supposedly not suffering as much, I always remember the time I was down the coast with my dogs (several Pyreneans and a Dalmatian) when we had a sudden heat wave. It was my Dalmatian we had the heat stroke scare with. The Pyrs remained quite comfortable and had no issues with the heat. All dogs were being kept quiet and in the shade together. No difference in the activity level, care or environment they were in.

I read it, I shouldn't have.........there is no vaccine for stupid. Using a front attach harness is apparently the only way to teach loose lead heeling. Guess all the dogs I have ever owned never got that memo. Bunch of idiots

Yep, stupid doesn't come close. Only no pull harnesses are the go apparently

Can't believe it has been thst long :) I remember also. He is looking great :)

http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/241680-wolfdogs/page__hl__czech

Why do people choose to be vegetarian, or boycott Nestle, or decide not to smack their kids? We map out our personal lines in the sand on how we interact with the world and try to live by them as best we can. Some people choose to draw the line at yelling, some at collars, others at pliers on the ears. We constantly weigh up which course of action is most acceptable to everyone's wellbeing and will all come to different conclusions about how that path looks. I think that the use of e-collars requires EXCEPTIONALLY good skills and timing to be used properly. Most people can't deliver a food reward in a timely way...whether or not the e-collar works more quickly is arguable but I think the risk of fallout is much greater. Particularly because it's about the dog's perception about what it is being punished for. Agreed. It also depends on the dog. Some of mine there is no way I would use one,others would be okay. In this instance with this dog it was a fast effective way to train for snakes as we have a lot of them. We have 5 acres fully mowed, no small creatures, no flower beds no wood piles no anything and we still get a number of them. Also when he works he is out in paddocks with lots of grass and cover. Generally he would be moving too fast for a snake to have time to strike and connect with him, but not always and it is a big risk.

...and I still don't know why electrical horse fences are allowed (correct me if I'm wrong and they are illegal too)...so you can 'torture' horses with electrical shocks (and every other creature that touches it), but no dogs...go figure.... This shows me you have no idea about horses or electric fences

We have used one with our working dog. So far it seems to have the desired effect. Not a run of the mill thing I would use but I have seen countless dogs (and other animals) bitten by snakes. Fought for the lives of many, breathed down a tube to save ones life and many other things. A period of training with a shock collar compared to a snake bite. The collar woukd win every time, no question.

No he has to register all pups born, he doesn't have to sell with papers or transfer to the new owners name. If he is a rego'd breeder who is not registering puppies he is in breach of CofE and shonky