Adnil444

These livestock guardian breeds are commonly used for the Dog Fighting Festival held each year in Afghanistan. This festival draws huge crowds from all over that part of the world (Russia, Pakistan etc) and they bet on the dogs (which are mainly the Ovtcharka breeds). Very sad and the govt hasn't outlawed this barbaric tradition. Children are watching this so what hope does the next generation have? LGD breeds are used for dog fighting because intellectually and economically challenged men (most often young males with nothing better to do with their time) have poor understanding of what/why dogs fight and thinks it helps them with their perception of tough and whatever else etc blah blah LGD breeds are crossed with other breeds because bigger dogs are tougher dogs and how cool do those dogs look uncontrolled at the end of a leash with pithy human on th eother end blowing in the wind... hmm.... Mainly the ovcharka breeds - oh which ones? The pure bred ones or the cross bred ones; purebred lineage of these dogs are not easy to find in certain populations. And just because youtube says it's so, doesn't mean it actually is. Agree with you - and yes the internet descriptions of these dog fighting festivals doesn't state if they are pure or not, probably a mixed bag. I don't know how to control this macho perception thing apart from govts and councils totally cracking down on byb and puppy farms and the only way someone can obtain a dog is through a registered breeder (where checks can be made and full information is given) or via a pound/rescue site and also ensuring owners have a licence. The bybs have a lot to answer for with their indiscriminate breeding, poor knowledge and totally in it for a quick dollar. The end result is a dog that will no doubt live probably a life without stimulation, without exercise, without socialisation (though I'm sure some are lucky) or will get dumped and maybe a chance that it is rehomed.

Just gorgeous. Our cat was like that with our Danes - she was their first and was the boss and they knew their place. They all used to sleep together. Every now and then the younger dane would give chase, but the cat would stand her ground and then swipe him - he certainly backed off.

Wow sounds very nice indeed. I'm in the same situation - one younger dog who is still into pulling things apart (toys, towels, blankets etc). I will also have to wait a while - they do have kennels which are undercover and the deck is a real suntrap. ;)

x2 Perhaps you should google the breed temperaments of some of these breeds - one website states that the Caucasian Ovcharka to have agression to people and other other animals (the family and the animals in the family ok) but visitors to your house beware. The sites also state over and over again - not the breed for anyone that doesn't have experience with large powerful breeds, must socialise them more so than other breeds if you are going to have one that isn't dog aggressive. While I don't want to single out other breeds, have you had a look at what these dogs can do in the wrong hands - I know you will all say that any dog can be dangerous in the wrong hands, I agree, but I would rather face a rottie than one of these in danger mode. It's not the people on these sites that are irresponsible. Can you imagine one of these dogs, purchased from a byb, put in a yard, never socialised, rarely or never exercised - what do you think will happen to that dog? We are not talking about a medium or large dog, we are talking about a giant breed with extreme power. I don't see a part in suburban life for these dogs. As a guardian dog of stock where you know that no person will ever get attacked, then ok. My family has a farm, and we have had numerous times people wander onto our land (which is clearly marked Private Property) - what if we had one of these dogs - I'm sure they would attack and the result would not be pretty (plus probably a large law suit to follow). I'm just stating that I would hate to see these dogs in the wrong hands and I don't feel that they deserve to live in suburbia. I have one of these breeds and generalisations of the breed and the type of people that own them are disgraceful and proves why ridiculous BSL laws are made. I would suggest rather than just Googling information that you take the time to try and meet responsible owners of these breeds. My "man eating killer" has been taken as a demonstration dog and handled by students, lives with a pom cross (and meets other dogs) and while I fully appreciate his breed tendencies and make allowances for them in our life to deem his breed as dangerous is very misguided. I am very passionate about the chosen breed I have and if I just Googled information on the breed without bothering to contact people about them I would have missed out on the absolute joy of owning one of the most wonderful animals I have ever met. And yes I agree they are dangerous in the wrong hands but if you would prefer to take on a rotti and think the outcome would still be ok well goodluck with that. Me I prefer to analyse risks, observe behaviour and try to avoid getting put in that situation. There will come a time when maybe rotti and dobes (and their crosses) may come up for BSL then perhaps people that own these breeds will suddenly not support BSL and you have previously stated that your rxd is untrustworthy around other small animals and would kill furry animals if given the chance. This is why I have said that dogs should be judged on their individual behaviour and that of their owners not just their breed full stop. My neighbours cocker spaniels chase and try to kill my pets however my CASD is happy to have guinea pigs crawl on him. Yes I am responsible we have our farm gates padlocked and have signs stating that there is No Unauthorised Entry, Flock Guardian on Premises and when we have visitors he is removed from the area but any responsible dog owner should protect their home/visitors and animals regardless of their breed. The articles that I have googled are from registered breeders of your breed from around the world - can't get much better info than a registered breeder. I have never stated that my dog would kill another furry animal or is untrustworthy, I certainly keep an eye on her, but she is not a problem to other dogs - only the small ones that go for her while their owners stand back and think it is funny or cute. I do keep her on a lead at the dog park if there are little ones that go for the bigger dogs. (We were at the beach on Saturday and she walked through a huge flock of seagulls that didn't move away without flinching!) I'm not stating that your are an irresponsible owner - quite the opposite in fact. I'm just stating that these dogs in the wrong hands in suburbia would be a disaster. Your dog is obviously well handled and you allow him to do the job that he was bred to do, which is great. The information that I have read from these registered breeders states that these dogs will accept family members and other animals that are part of their family (regardless of whether it is a guinea pig, rabbit, cat etc). As I have stated several times in this thread, I don't have a problem with a responsible owner having these breeds, it's the irresponsible ones that will cause the problem, which will cause an issue with the breeds on the list. The Danish govt must have had sound reason to ban the breeds on their list in their country.

I agree to a point - the govt and local councils have their hands tied - the public want something done about these attacks and they cannot ban people owning these dogs, so the do the only thing left to them, ban the breed. They look at it like the gun ban - the less guns on the street, the less gun violence. The general public wants something done and unless we can ban byb who in my opinion have created this mess, then BSL will be here to stay. Imagine how well the APBT would be if there were only registered breeders allowed to breed this dog - no bybs, no crosses, potential purchasers can be vetted etc etc. What a difference that breed would now be in. I do think though that certain dogs, that on their breed characteristics has aggression towards humans as well as other animals, should be treated very carefully. The APBT should never be human aggressive and from my understanding, those that were, were culled. You can't deny that in the wrong hands, these dogs (not the APBT) could be a disaster.

Hi Miloch, I'm very sorry for your loss. I had the same thing with a 8 month great dane once - he dropped dead in the back of the car - just like that. We did have an autopsy done and the result was a congenital heart defect (massive heart attack in other words).

x2 Perhaps you should google the breed temperaments of some of these breeds - one website states that the Caucasian Ovcharka to have agression to people and other other animals (the family and the animals in the family ok) but visitors to your house beware. The sites also state over and over again - not the breed for anyone that doesn't have experience with large powerful breeds, must socialise them more so than other breeds if you are going to have one that isn't dog aggressive. While I don't want to single out other breeds, have you had a look at what these dogs can do in the wrong hands - I know you will all say that any dog can be dangerous in the wrong hands, I agree, but I would rather face a rottie than one of these in danger mode. It's not the people on these sites that are irresponsible. Can you imagine one of these dogs, purchased from a byb, put in a yard, never socialised, rarely or never exercised - what do you think will happen to that dog? We are not talking about a medium or large dog, we are talking about a giant breed with extreme power. I don't see a part in suburban life for these dogs. As a guardian dog of stock where you know that no person will ever get attacked, then ok. My family has a farm, and we have had numerous times people wander onto our land (which is clearly marked Private Property) - what if we had one of these dogs - I'm sure they would attack and the result would not be pretty (plus probably a large law suit to follow). I'm just stating that I would hate to see these dogs in the wrong hands and I don't feel that they deserve to live in suburbia.

These livestock guardian breeds are commonly used for the Dog Fighting Festival held each year in Afghanistan. This festival draws huge crowds from all over that part of the world (Russia, Pakistan etc) and they bet on the dogs (which are mainly the Ovtcharka breeds). Very sad and the govt hasn't outlawed this barbaric tradition. Children are watching this so what hope does the next generation have?

The Ovtcharkas (which quite a few fall under this breed) are known for their very aggressive nature. I've seen footage of these dogs and not only can they aggressive (towards humans as well as other dogs), but the sheer size of them can well be a recipe for disaster. They must have some stats in their country for this ban. runs off to wake up Jake and tell him that he is a danger to world as we know it Damn now the rabbits and lambs will have no one to cuddle and keep warm with in Winter. But I'm assuming you are a responsible owner???? You would have to agree that these breeds in irresponsible hands is a disaster waiting to happen.

The Ovtcharkas (which quite a few fall under this breed) are known for their very aggressive nature. I've seen footage of these dogs and not only can they aggressive (towards humans as well as other dogs), but the sheer size of them can well be a recipe for disaster. They must have some stats in their country for this ban. The Boerbel another interesting one. Several of my South African friends (who are dog lovers and owners) cannot believe they are allowed in this country - they have said that time and time again this breed makes the front page and TV news because they have attacked people, and usually members of their own family (of course that doesn't mean all will by any means), but just shows that these large powerful breeds in the wrong hands can be a disaster. What we don't want here are the irresponsible dog owners picking these breeds. I'm all for responsible dog owners having these breeds. Hmmmm.......not much else to say really other than my experience with Boerboels is the complete opposite. Again, why we are extremely selective on who owns this breed. Why we continue with the appraisal system of which the largest scores pertain to temprement then health. Why, if the dog doesn't pass its appraisal, won't be elegible for registration. Still doesn't mean your BYB can't go out and breed, but we are doing the best we can. Of all the owners and breeders that i've had dealings with in this country, all has been positive. Agree - I wish there will come a day when you can only purchase a puppy/dog from a registered breeder or through shelters/rescue organisations. I would love to see an end to the BYB, as I'm sure most of you all would too. These breeds I believe are fine in the right homes with the right owners, but what we will see are these dogs being bred by BYBs and then god knows what will happen to them. Once it is known among certain people that the "new best breed to get" is a boerbel, ovchartka etc then no doubt we will see tragic accidents happening in the community - the bybs will be out in force selling the "new dog of the moment" with no thought or knowledge about these breeds. I hope it won't happen, but I believe it will. Powerful breeds like these in irresponsible hands I'm sure all would agree is a disaster waiting to happen.

I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope every day with her is wonderful. This is so young. I have also lost a young dog - he was 9 months old (purebred great dane). He died in the back of the car - no warning nothing, just dropped dead. He also had congenital heart problem that was just a ticking time bomb we later found out. We no longer purchased any dogs from that registered breeder again (the 2 we got from her had major issues, the 2 that were purchased from another registered breeder were just perfect, in breed type and temperament).

The Ovtcharkas (which quite a few fall under this breed) are known for their very aggressive nature. I've seen footage of these dogs and not only can they aggressive (towards humans as well as other dogs), but the sheer size of them can well be a recipe for disaster. They must have some stats in their country for this ban. The Boerbel another interesting one. Several of my South African friends (who are dog lovers and owners) cannot believe they are allowed in this country - they have said that time and time again this breed makes the front page and TV news because they have attacked people, and usually members of their own family (of course that doesn't mean all will by any means), but just shows that these large powerful breeds in the wrong hands can be a disaster. What we don't want here are the irresponsible dog owners picking these breeds. I'm all for responsible dog owners having these breeds.

All for education..but if people have it in their heads to breed then they're not going to desex. If you cannot afford to have a dog desexed then you shouldn't own a dog. In the scheme of things desexing isn't a huge expense. So you are telling me that a 70 year old lady that can not afford to desex her dog that she has because there is no one else around can not own a dog because she can not afford to desex because she is on a pension? Desexing is a huge expense in the year 2010, over $200 for the average dog/bitch. That is someone's shopping for the week, rent, petrol, bills.... My house payments have gone up by $500 a month in 5 months. Now explain to me why someone that can not afford to desex their animal shouldn't own a dog? Because if that dog gets pregnant then the $200+ for desexing will seem like a pittance. Also what if she can't find suitable homes for the pups? Will she dump them, will she send them to the pound where they could end up being pts? The list goes on. To me and most others, desexing is a part of owning a dog (or cat). The cycle of unwanted dogs and puppies continues. If you can't afford that basic cost, then perhaps you may need to look at another pet. If she wants a dog, then the rescue organisations sell them relatively cheaply and all vaccinations and desexing is taken care of.

Normally I do except in really bad weather (lightening, thunder etc). I often will take them for a drive and sometimes go to a shopping mall and walk around the car park (I know not very interesting, but it gets them out for a short while and they feel like they have done something).

I totally agree - mum and I were only talking about this the other day - I would rather a warm one any day over a cold one.

:D and clean up afterwards!!! If someone broke into our house, I'd fully expect my borders to pester the robbers/axe murderers/rapists into throwing the ball for them for 2 hours. Hopefully by then the robbers/axe murderers/rapists would have tired themselves out...failing that, I'd have enough time to gonk the robbers/axe murderers/rapists over the head. But then I'd have to throw the ball myself for 2 hours waiting for the police to turn up. Love it

Hi, can I ask why? If you're not a registered breeder, then why would you need to have a dog that is undesexed? What is the difference for a pound/rescue dog being desexed before it goes home with new owner (which I agree with) and the purebred pet that is purchased from a registered breeder - surely that pup should also be desexed (when old enough) as well. There are just as many purebreeds in the pounds and shelters as crossbreeds.

But then won't people not register their dogs with the council if the price is too high? I'm all for mandatory desexing - only registered breeders should be breeding. The rescue sites and pounds are full of purebreds and cross breeds and many will not finds homes and will be pts. A responsible dog owner factors in the price of desexing, registering, vets etc. If you can't, then possibly those people should not have a dog.

How awful - is it the same dog for each of these attacks? What is the council say they are going to do about it? Why should the responsible decent people of the community have to put up with this? The rangers and police should be out there, shoot the dog(s) if need be, fine the owners heavily, and let everyone live in peace. I'm over this type of behaviour from a small group of idiots in the community. Keep on the council to do something about this - it must stop.

Hi Nannas, I'll be the devil's advocate here, but perhaps they will say BSL is working because there are no APBTs on the list - that banning them has succeeded they are no longer around (would be interested to find out what the unknown breeds are).

Agree - I've seen the damage these wild dogs do and it is not a pretty sight, certainly not a nice way to die, in fact some of the stock they attack are badly maimed and are still alive - this is a farmers livelihood, they will shoot where they can, but don't get them all. They are a horrible problem - imagine if they got into an area where there was a child. While I don't like the idea of baiting (though I have rat bait under my house and I'm sure many of you do as well that are opposed to baiting), there isn't that many other ways of getting rid of these dogs. They are very skillful at being elusive! Trapping, getting professional shooters in, are possible other ways. Where we have our farm, they have used traps, the dogs learn very quickly to avoid them, while in the meantime will go through a flock of ewes with lambs and selectively kill and maim half the flock. Baiting is also risky to pet dogs! Not for it AT ALL! If the dogs are that elusive what makes you think they're going to attack a child? Besides which, you wouldn't leave a child on his own in such areas anyway, would you? there can be other risks for small children, like dams....from what I'm hearing there are far more deaths from children drowning in dams than being attacked by wild dogs...in fact, I cannot recall a child being attacked by wild dogs. I do stand corrected if I'm wrong...but whatever the case it is hardly a common occurrence. I didn't say it was a common occurrence, just stating what can and could happen. Yes dams are a big problem with children on farms however that is not the issue at hand. Pet dogs on farms are most times kept in a house yard and are in the home. Most farmers know the risks with their dogs and working dogs are either penned or chained up when not working, pet dogs are in the house yard. I know of several pet dogs that have gotten out and went into other properties only to be shot, this is the rule of the land. Farmers cannot afford to have their stock maimed and killed. Until you see the carnage that these dogs do to innocent stock, then by all means offer up some other solution to the farmers, but in the meantime, there is no real alternative, so they will do what they have on hand. Just like the councils in most areas will bait for foxes, rabbits etc in parklands and I don't see too many people up in arms about that. The councils leave notes in the areas where there is bait and will usually advertise in the local paper advising when the baiting will occur. These are pests and cause a lot of damage and while I agree with you that baiting is not a nice way to go, I'm sure the ewes and lambs would also agree that having limbs ripped off, their stomachs ripped open, throats torn apart etc etc is not a nice way to go either. The threat wild dogs pose to children is real, and while it is remote, farmers must manage the threats to their stock and to their families. Several years ago we were involved in the rescue of a two year old child who had wandered away from the farm house when his mother was asleep. The eight month pregnant mother had laid on the lounge to put her feet up for a few minutes and just clean fallen asleep. The child somehow managed to get the supposed secure house yard gate open and went for a walk with his pet cattle dog bitch, who was on heat. We were on the neighboroughing property (in an area where the properties were about 200,000 acres) and had a reputation as owning a good nose dog (used for pig hunting - this was in our youth). The SES had searched for the child for 8 hours, and lost him when his tracks left the dirt road about a kilometer from the house. We were asked to help and we arrived in the middle of the night. There was great concern for the child because the bitch was on heat and might actually attract a wild dog. The region has lots of wild dogs which regularly destroy stock, and make running sheep impossible as the losses are too high. Our nose dog led us in a line straight to the kid, naked and cold in the middle of the night in the scrub. I gave him my coat and carried him to the search party vehicles. Our dog was not trained to rescue people, and was only following the scent of the bitch (we think), but he became a hero that night and made the paper. It only took us about 20 minutes to locate the child. We've had dingo's attack working dogs. I've seen a pack of wild dogs pull down an old dairy cow, and kill her calf and chew her anus out while she was alive. I've seen wild dogs kill for fun, just killing calves and not eating them. We see many calves with no ears or no tail. In large properties in particular, aerial baiting is used as the only effective way of controling dog pests over such a large area. Yes, working dogs get killed too, which is a terrible shame. A working dog is a valuable and important asset to the farmer, and often a mate too, and most would take precautions to protect them, but sometimes something just goes wrong. Baiting is an unpleasant thing, but so are wild dogs. Biological controls have been used with other pests with disastrous results (remember the cane toad). Trapping can have some impact on smaller farms but is impractical over larger areas. Same goes for shooting (which can have it's own cruelty due to the fact that not every kill is a clean one). At least baiting works and saves the lives of thousands of livestock, killing the wild dog reasonably quickly (compared to lieing gut shot in the scrub), with minimal collateral kill (a few crows and working dogs). People really should walk a mile in the farmers shoes before dismissing them as dimwits. Here Here mumof3 - couldn't agree more. What an experience you went through, thank god the child was found alive and ok. Great work on behalf of your dog. This could have been a terrible tragedy.

I agree with you, but this will never happen so the councils and local governments do what they can and ban the breeds that they believe are responsible. Unfortunately the general public want something done about this. I wish people could be banned from owning certain dog breeds but in our society that won't happen. So they can't ban the owner, but they can ban the breed. I for one would never own a dog that looked liked or resembled in any way an ABPT - there are so many crosses and look alikes that even if it isn't an APBT, the general resemblance to the untrained eye will think that it is. You will always be blamed if something did go wrong and once more litigation comes into play, personally I do not think it is worth the risk. Others will and that's great, but it's not for me.

Agree - I've seen the damage these wild dogs do and it is not a pretty sight, certainly not a nice way to die, in fact some of the stock they attack are badly maimed and are still alive - this is a farmers livelihood, they will shoot where they can, but don't get them all. They are a horrible problem - imagine if they got into an area where there was a child. While I don't like the idea of baiting (though I have rat bait under my house and I'm sure many of you do as well that are opposed to baiting), there isn't that many other ways of getting rid of these dogs. They are very skillful at being elusive! Trapping, getting professional shooters in, are possible other ways. Where we have our farm, they have used traps, the dogs learn very quickly to avoid them, while in the meantime will go through a flock of ewes with lambs and selectively kill and maim half the flock. Baiting is also risky to pet dogs! Not for it AT ALL! If the dogs are that elusive what makes you think they're going to attack a child? Besides which, you wouldn't leave a child on his own in such areas anyway, would you? there can be other risks for small children, like dams....from what I'm hearing there are far more deaths from children drowning in dams than being attacked by wild dogs...in fact, I cannot recall a child being attacked by wild dogs. I do stand corrected if I'm wrong...but whatever the case it is hardly a common occurrence. I didn't say it was a common occurrence, just stating what can and could happen. Yes dams are a big problem with children on farms however that is not the issue at hand. Pet dogs on farms are most times kept in a house yard and are in the home. Most farmers know the risks with their dogs and working dogs are either penned or chained up when not working, pet dogs are in the house yard. I know of several pet dogs that have gotten out and went into other properties only to be shot, this is the rule of the land. Farmers cannot afford to have their stock maimed and killed. Until you see the carnage that these dogs do to innocent stock, then by all means offer up some other solution to the farmers, but in the meantime, there is no real alternative, so they will do what they have on hand. Just like the councils in most areas will bait for foxes, rabbits etc in parklands and I don't see too many people up in arms about that. The councils leave notes in the areas where there is bait and will usually advertise in the local paper advising when the baiting will occur. These are pests and cause a lot of damage and while I agree with you that baiting is not a nice way to go, I'm sure the ewes and lambs would also agree that having limbs ripped off, their stomachs ripped open, throats torn apart etc etc is not a nice way to go either.

Agree - I've seen the damage these wild dogs do and it is not a pretty sight, certainly not a nice way to die, in fact some of the stock they attack are badly maimed and are still alive - this is a farmers livelihood, they will shoot where they can, but don't get them all. They are a horrible problem - imagine if they got into an area where there was a child. While I don't like the idea of baiting (though I have rat bait under my house and I'm sure many of you do as well that are opposed to baiting), there isn't that many other ways of getting rid of these dogs. They are very skillful at being elusive! Trapping, getting professional shooters in, are possible other ways. Where we have our farm, they have used traps, the dogs learn very quickly to avoid them, while in the meantime will go through a flock of ewes with lambs and selectively kill and maim half the flock.