Cosmolo

What poodlefan said

Yep, thats the one. Its interesting because you seem to want the same thing as i do with my next pup but i consider what i do to get that socialisation and training rather than neutralisation. One of the main things i don't like about neutralisation is that, in having multiple dogs- the dogs don't have a positive value for each other. My dogs have a very positive value for each other and a mild positive value for dogs outside the pack (except for a few that they know and see often) and this is what i like and hope to create with future dogs.

There was another thread on socialisation vs neutralisation recently where there were a few different opinions expressed- can anyone find it? Personally i want my dogs to enjoy other dogs and other people- just not more than me. Staranais and Huski- i am curious. Do you want your next dog to be able to play with other dogs at all? If you do but have the dog prefer to be with you, i wouldn't think thats pure neutralisation? A properly neutralised dog won't want to play with other dogs because they have little or no value.

I'm sorry to hear that- RIP. Hugs to you and your family

Can't believe leadership i now a dirty word We're going to run out of words to use!

Maybe way off the mark and don't want to cause any offence or upset- but is it possible there is something in your yard or area (heavy metal toxicity for instance) that could have caused both Kal and Mandela's problems?

How frustrating for you Erny Fingers crossed that the next few months yield some kind of positive result for you and Mandela

Provided the dog does not fall (i don't consider misplacing a paw to be falling) i don't see the problem. How is this any different to shaping with a box where the dog puts their paws on the box- i know when i was shaping this, my dogs paw slipped a few times- a distance of about 10 cm to the ground and she was not bothered by it at all. I do not agree with a dog falling to the ground or perching on the stackers terrified of moving but i know many dogs that would find this (with the low height stackers) a confidence building challenge with intelligent owners using it correctly. My Cosmo would absolutely love it. The cries of every tool being cruel is a little over the top i think. I think its obvious that anything can be cruel in the wrong hands- a piece of rope, a bit of wood, a dog toy, a lead- all can be cruel in the hands of someone who is ignorant, unintelligent or downright mean. Don't think everything should be labelled a 'cruel tool' because some people choose to use it for a purpose different from what was intended.

Is it normal to do an FHO on a large dog? Definitely not being critical- just curious as we were told it wasn't an option for our boy as he was too big? Have also been told the sooner they can gently weight bear on the leg the better but i would speak to your vet too.

Sorry Erny- that was me quoting you

I agree that the release of pressure is a reinforcer- i think this is the case regardless of whether the stim comes before or after the command though. Erny- by what you've just said in the above quote, do you mean that (in the learning stages) you apply the stim and then guide the dog to doing what it should do and then the stim comes off? Yes- i just give a command, then apply the stim and guide simultaneously. There might be a very short time where the dog can make a choice but hey would then be guided to teh right behaviour. I think some of these things are really hard to explain via ritten word- it'd be great to have an e collar workshop with lots of different trainers who use the collar differently and getting to see exactly what happens!

No Erny- i'd been taught to use the e collar as a high level, on off positive punisher and for that reason i rarely ever used e collars until doing Bart's workshop. Erny i have used the method with dogs that don't train in drive, don't have high prey drive and/ or are fearful/ timid. Erny "But if you're only guiding the dog and if the dog is not perceiving the stim as a correction, why teach it that non-compliance might be worthwhile trying? That's the part I don't 'get' in the method that you describe in your use." Sorry- i find this really confusing When the dog is learning, as the stim is applied, the dog is guided- i think there is limited opportunity for them to fail at this point. At some point, yes this would change and the dog may make a mistake. Just as with NR, if they don't comply straight way, the stim stays on until they do- i am struggling to see the difference in this respect. Doesn't the dog still make a mistake by not complying immediately? At some point you would have to stop guiding? I think your both right in that the stim is a 'correction'- to be honest i have never called it a correction though because the way i was taught previously (high level stim, on and off) is what i associated as a correction. But i do understand that technically, no matter how low the stim that if it occurs after the command and changes behaviourin the way that it does it must be one. I do appreciate your replies and discussion on this

I know research isn't one dog and don't base my decisions on one dog, however knowing a dog as well as i do one of my own puts me in a good position to be able to see what a technique is capable of- in some cases. Agree that a video or workshop isn't everything but it does provide an idea.

I posted the video because i know how bart trains his dogs- perhaps i should have said that the end result using this method is not always a dog with lower drive. Note that i said 'definitely/ always' meaning that i am sure in some cases drive does reduce- but just not every case. You may not see how video could help but i would like to see a video of a dogs first session using the e collar as you describe for my information and education. It may or may not 'help' but i would just like to see one. As you say, i need to see it in the dogs, not just hear about it on a forum. I don't disagree with you with regards to drive being regained in some cases, i also think it can be maintained in some cases- based on my experiences, particularly with one of my own dogs. Doesn't using the stim before the command still compel the dog to comply becausethe stim is not removed until the dog complies? Its not just an attention getter because you remove it when the dog has complied with the command, not just when the dog pays attention/ switches on? I changed the way i use an e collar after seeing it used at Bart's workshop so i agree that things change when you see different results.

Staranais, i understand what you're saying- i know the stim is not unpleasant/ painful for the dog. It just still makes me uncomfortable at this stage, given that i haven't seen the advantages of doing it this way. I would definitely go and see someone train in this way though and maybe doing so would change my mind.

I know its trained in prey drive K9, (I said when posted "its not an e collar one") but having spoken to Bart he uses an e collar on all of his dogs in combination with prey drive rewards. The video to me is the finished product- not the training process. I was simply suggesting that its possible to use an e collar after a command AND maintain drive. I am not trying to prove you wrong K9- i am just posing questions and my experiences as you are so yes i realise it was me who asked the question and that you can only answer based on your experiences. Do you have a video of early training using the method? (and i just loved that video and wanted to post it!) I agree with you that corrections reduce drive. I just don't consider such low stim on a dog to be a correction and my contention is that i don't believe it always reduces drive. Why would the dog be second guessing whether a correction is looming? The dog still controls the stim when you use it after the command? I just find it hard to comprehend that there is such a vast difference between applying a stim on a low level 1/2- 1 second before the command vs 1-3 seconds after the command. Applying the stim after the command does not have to = a correction IMO. K 9 "but I believe that whe we use the stim first, it highlights the right move not the wrong move. The stim can be applied throigh several distractions but turned off only when the right resppnse has been offered (usually with guidance from the handler)" This is where i get confused K9 because this is exactly what i do- we still guide the dog, turn the collar off when the right response is offered etc.

Can only find bitework videos with Bart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64IXBdravjI This isn't an e collar one But i had to post! He trains all his dogs using e collars and prey drive and i think this vid refutes that lowering of drive definitely/ always occurs when using the stim after the command. I am still looking for more.

Yes we have Erny- including one of our own who has extreme fear issues. I will try to find some vids of Bart- i have looked before with no success but will look again! I wish i had videoed the session we went to with him.

Depends a little on the dog but we usually start around 2 seconds- this may change as the dog progresses if needed. I haven't found an issue getting super quick responses because the dogs are trying to beat the stim. We release and reward quicker for quicker responses as well.

I understand what you're saying Erny. I just find it hard to get my head around the dog feeling the stim without prior opportunity to have done the right thing. Do you have any links to video of a dogs first session using this method?

I just typed a long reply and my computer shut down Superminty, using the e collar as P+ technically doesn't mean the level is such that it is like a 'normal' correction. I find the same things you do in my e collar training- dog knows how to turn the stim off, dog figures it out on their own (helped to start with of course)- the only difference is that i give a command first and then use stim if needed, whereas K9 and others stim first then give the command. I agree with all that you said about the similarity to shaping but with added pressure and the dog not being afraid to make a mistake etc. I just think the same can be done while also giving the dog an opportunity to respond to a known command, before using the stim.

Where's anita! I am sure it was her who posted the change in restriction not so long ago. Does anyone remember the thread?

Fair enough K9- but thats the point of me asking the question. I'm not going to experiment on my clients dogs with something i am not convinced about just for comparisons sake. I think its good to question things you're unsure about- before considering 'trying it out' on dogs. Its not the only way i know- i have just not used your way before. How can a dog feel a stim before a command but not after? Their ability to feel wouldn't change just because you have given a verbal command? Can you explain how to wean the dog off the collar when you teach the dog that the stim is the first part of the command/ behaviour process? Thank you

I don't feel i have to use high levels at all using the stim after the command? What happens when you don't then have the e collar to tell the dog the command is coming? I haven't seen a dog pair the stim with the command as its not as though the stim is still on when they are complying. I do get more immediate responses to commands which is what i'm after, to the point that i then don't have to use the RT at all. Do you always have to have the RT to stim the dog first to cue then that a command is coming or does this change in later training? I'm not saying using the e collar in the way you do is 'bad'- although it is not my preference. But i just don't see the advantages in doing so and can see a few little disadvantages.