Cosmolo

Kavik, i have a dog here who was 'compelled' to go through a tunnel after other methods had failed (this was also under the guidance of people more experienced in agility than myself) and after 2 compelled repetitions with high value rewards at the end- she was fantastic and now loves the tunnel. My only regret is not compelling her earlier as the other methods (which had worked fine for mine and many other dogs) caused more stress over a longer period of time for her. I understand that this would not be the 'norm', but it is an example of different things for different dogs- i knew my dog well enough to know it would work well, i just didn't have the confidence to speak up to those more experienced than me at the time when we were going through the other processes. On the other hand, my kelpie x would be seriously p**sed if anyone tried to 'compel' her to do anything pertaining to agility- combination of luring and shaping is the best option for her!

Did you mean me instead of Erny PF

Initial stages of drive with Georgie

Cosmo in drive bit blurry unfortunately

Awesome photos!! And just to show that it can be the reverse- higher drive with something fake/ toy and lower with a real prey object-

I should have realised just how filthy a white dog can get I also wish i had known that you can have a great garden and dogs- then we would have done our garden earlier! Just with regards to puppy school- long periods of off lead play can be a problem. Ideally IMO- short periods of play followed by teaching the pups to calm, settle and focus would be ideal and can definitely be done within a pre school. I usually find that by the end of the course, all of the pups whose owners have been consistent were able to play and then focus on their owners when asked without a problem. We teach a conditioned recall command separate to this too.

Classically condition a 'watch' command- at home, before using it anywhere else- give the word and immediately reward with something very high value. In the meantime when on walks, if he pulls, change direction and move further away from the dog- try to do this before he hits the very end of the lead though. Puppy schools that allow dogs to play off lead WITHOUT teaching them to stop, calm and focus on their owners can cause problems but its a fine line- we want social dogs but we also want dogs that don't think other dogs are the BEST thing in the world. What did they suggest you do at training? What do you walk him on- normal collar?

Removing the collar when he is still worried about it compounds the problem. Put it on and leave it on- for a whole day and evening.

What Kelpie i said. I see some dogs and if they were mine i would do things differently to the way i suggest the client handles them and the issue- a technique is only as good as the person implementing it and its no good recommending the best technique in the world (whatever that is) if the owner can't do it correctly.

Bedazzled- what would you class as 'prey drive'?

You may also want to consider AAPS- they have some lovely dogs and can assist you to find a suitable dog, even if there is nothing currently available that would suit. I have had good experiences with SADS, however i have had clients get dogs from there (and many other places) that were not what they expected. Ask lots of questions, ask to see a formal temperament evaluation and take your time. Ensure that you see how the dog interacts with another dog as well whenever possible.

Depending on the times and locations you are looking at, we run classes in the areas as does Erny who is also on the forum.

I've used some compulsion with my dogs and with one dog, its actually allowed our bond and relationship to become alot stronger. Using compulsion doesn't automatically create negative fallout.

Yes absolutely Kelpie i- handlers and situations vary too- the hardest situations is when those variables work against each other- difficult dog, with life threatening issue with handler lacking ability I just meant that there are some dogs who (with a capable handler) can achieve reliability without compulsion, and some who (with a capable handler) cannot. I should have said 'all other things being equal'.

Ricketts Point is one of my favourite places to go with the dogs. Great beach, extra large area and generally responsible dog owners

I think you can make a great argument either way And as always i think it depends on the dog!

Again it depends on the dog- the dogs i mentioned earlier that were super sensitive would not recover well from a big correction. I think lots of dogs are more resilient than we give them credit for but some are not. Dogs are individuals

I teach with a lure as a stationary position, then short bursts with lure, then start to wean off. But to be honest- i don't think its a great method for impatient handlers or dogs that have trouble luring either- i have tried a few different methods and this is the one that works best for the majority of dogs and handlers but its far from perfect. We do squares and circles to help with handling skills and hind end awareness once the dogs are moving. We teach loose lead walking separately but i think its good to start teaching stationary heel at the same time, ie early on so that when you start to work more on heeling the dogs have a better understanding and handlers don't get as impatient. I too would be interested to hear how others teach it as its one training exercise i'm not completely happy with. ETA I don't talk alot about footwork to begin with- most people are struggling with the half dozen other things required so footwork is introduced later as an additional cue

No the breeder is not keeping a boy- she has told us we can have first pick of the litter too.

Coats can change but they are all expected to be rough or broken coats.

Corvus, i can understand why that sounds silly But what i mean is that now, i think many people equate punishment, not just with something unpleasant, but with abuse or extremist punishment. I see clients who tell me they don't want to use any punishment because they have had a bad experience- recent one was a dog going blue on a slip lead.. Thats not what i think of when i think punishment and i hate that other people do because of such an experience. In the same way- i have others tell me they will not use food to train because they had previous bad experience- bribery, constant food treats etc. So i dislike people thinking the word punishment = abuse, and dislike training with food= bribery. A tool used incorrectly does not make a bad tool! Some tools are harder to teach to some people and no tool is suited to every dog. Maybe its my background as well- punishment to me is a consequence that makes behaviour less likely to occur. I know the 'jargon' annoys some people but tahts really how i think of it- its not an emotionally loaded word for me.

And the same could be said to those that never use punishment Trainers should be willing to change and adapt- from day to day and in the long term too. I'm not the same trainer i was 6 months, 6 years ago and i like that- there is always more to learn.

I think thats important too- punishment isn't instructive, so therefore, you can't just deliver a punishment and expect the dog to work out the alternative on their own. If i use a punisher, i always want to ensure the dog knows what they can do instead. Again it depends on the dog too- some dogs need more help to work things out in any training, others do not need as much. Some dogs are super sensitive, some are insensitive and everything in between. This is where the skill of a trainer comes into play IMO- to be able to go from dog to dog and automatically adjusting what you're doing and how you're training to suit. This is where any stock standard training can go wrong because dogs are so so different from each other

To define punishment depends on whether or not the behaviour given is less likely to occur again- so alot will depend on what training you have done with the dog previously, what reward schedule they are used to etc. I don't mean to imply that the general public should embrace punishment BUT i find it sad that the word punishment has now become loaded with such negative connatations- its fast becoming a 'dirty word'. Just for the record, i don't mean to confuse anyone through the language i use- its just the way i explain myself. I think we probably are all talking about the same things though. ETA I think one of the issues with punishers is when they get used by extremists- a sure fire way to colour everyone's view of the word punishment and the use of it in training.

Thanks guys. I love your sig Clover- Harri is so gorgeous! In 8 weeks time we will have a little dog named Gilbert- can't wait! The breeder has said we can visit any time which is great, i think we will get in a couple of visits at least. At what age do you think you can actually choose a puppy?