Cosmolo

Genuine question Cavalier- when you let people know not to take their pups out, do you also advise of the need for at home socialisation and specific things they should be doing while the pups are in their critical period? (approx 6-16 weeks)

Congratulations on the impending arrival of your pup! While i don't know him personally, many people have had good results wth Mark Singer in Adelaide so you may want to contact him. I urge you to make socialisation your absolute focus during your pups first 8-10 weeks home with you- obedience is great and can be started too but socialisation is critical- particularly with other dogs (in controlled, calm situations).

Whereabouts are you looking for training? Are you wanting to trial/ compete as well?

I agree it can be tricky when you have 4 boisterous and one timid pup and things definitely have to be adjusted accordingly. Sometimes people don't understand that you can't choose the pups temperaments and personalities in a class! I also wonder whether the area you conduct pre school in makes a difference- as in geographical location? I run a class in an area dominated by off lead parks and public space where dogs are permitted. There is a high volume of dogs and people usually have friends with dogs. Therefore almost everyone that attends these classes lets their dog play with others on a regular basis off lead so i don't think not having play in puppy class would actually make them calmer 8-9 month olds. Instead my focus is on teaching them the 'how to's' of puppy play Demographics are a very important factor- i notice significant differences in the kind of puppy owners i get between the 2 locations we have and they're only 1/2 hour from each other!!! Yes i agree that pups can be great at reading body language. But i also see those that have only ever had play with like minded pups have no clue later on what 'i don't want to play' means. I love watching puppies adjust what they do to meet and greet one of my adults and i think its important for them to be able to do. I also think its good for owners to be able to see different body language- not just happy play or greetings. But i agree that access to the right adult dogs is difficult- we are jut really lucky with the 2 we have at the moment but we constantly monitor as one of the girls is getting older and we'll need to keep this in mind. I notice big differences in puppy's social skills depending on where they've come from LP- pups who have come from a responsible breeder, kept until 8 weeks and socialised during that time are vastly different to the 12 week old puppy who has been in the pet shop since 7-8 weeks without littermates. Helen, that sounds similar to what we do too, can i ask where that puppy school was held? I'd love to know where yours are too LP and S+T so that if i can't help someone in a certain area i can send them to a good pre school! ETA Serket, thats really interesting. I find a few of my clients are in the same boat too and don't have alot of access to quality socialisation opportunities

Is Dandenong too far to take them? Carolyn is excellent isn't she! The other groomer we know in Dandenong is also fabulous but probbly not quite as busy as she works from hom and doesn't advertise much.

I think thats a really good question S+T and i think the answer lies with the individual dog. I have 1 dog who would correct a pup appropriately if needed but he does not enjoy it and i believe it would adversely affect him in the long run so he does not get used in any puppy class. However i have 2 other dogs that i use for different reasons in puppy classes and i believe they really enjoy it. One is excellent for building confidence in shy or timid pups- she is very calm, gentle and relaxed. The other is IMO an exceptional alpha bitch- friendly but excellent at teaching warnings, body language and follow through with certain pups. i select these pups carefully and the responses on both sides are very good- my dog is not stressed as she is very confident in her own social skills and controls the situation well. I completely agree re explaining to clients and i do this and still get the comments from some. They aren't negative comments as such (because they all enjoy the class and how the pups progress) but it just tells me that the expectation among puppy owners is still for lots of puppy play. The question relates specifically to 'was the class what you expected' and almost everyone says no Most say it was better or different or they didn't know what to expect but i would say 30% of clients expected more play time as well. I have seen some pretty frightening 'free for alls' too- mainly large groups in large areas and they get so far away from the people that when something happens no one is close enough or quick enough to react! While i teach clients when to intervene etc, i also recognise that to start with they will likely be a bit late so i move faster than they do to ensure no scuffles or inappropriate play Interesting though- because i find a small-ish area better than a large area for puppy play too. I've never heard the term puppy parties relating to puppy pre school? Was that common in Vic? (my early puppy schools were all in WA and i never heard the term there) I spoke to a UK trainer recently who doesn't believe any puppy class should have puppy play without adult teaching dogs present and involved. She said pups together is like 5 year olds trying to teach each other rules and manners I'd love to see how other puppy schools run, don't get the opportunity very often if at all which is why i like these discussions

Okay i have a question- for those who do not allow free play, how do you teach owners when to intervene, when to stop their pups and how to settle them after play and appropriate body language between pups? Generally speaking in our puppy schools the excitable, confident over the top pups by week four have learned how to calm and settle and how to focus after playing, while the timid pups have learned social and play skills they did not have when the course started. The play is much improved by week four, not worse or more over the top. My clients fill out feedback forms after each course and i still get the comment that they expected more play time. How do you avoid having unhppy customers if there is no free play at all? (And i don't mean we keep customers happy to the detriment of the puppy because i don't believe thats the case) okay here are my 2 questions relating to puppy school- What are the benefits if any in allowing adult dogs (sometimes called teaching dogs in this context) to interact during puppy classes? Is it appropriate for adult dogs to deliver effective but reasonable corrections to rude, over confident puppies? Do we 'protect' pups too much in not allowing them to learn the full range of dog body language during their critical period and does this influence their social skills or lack of as an adult? okay that was a few more than 2 questions... ETA - S+T do you think all free play is a free for all? ETA2 Also, i just wanted to add i really like threads like these as its good to discuss these sorts of things with other trainers rather than just in my head.. lol

Yes i do allow off lead play- We usually have a class of 6-8 and play takes place 2-3 puppies at a time. The pups are matched according to their temperament, confidence and social skills. Why do we do it? A- because i think its of benefit to the pups social development. B because i know puppy owners are going to let their pups play with others at some point so i would like to use pre school as an opportunity to teach them about appropriate play, when to stop play, dealing with different arousal levels and how to calm and settle their pup once they get excited as well as valuable dog body language lessons. I believe the firs step in a reliable recall is teaching owners how to settle their pup and get them to focus after play and the improvements we see over the course duration is astounding for all those who listen. Those who do not listen, do not get to disturb others who do. No puppy in my class gets chased around, bullied or jumped on inappropriately. I was going to start another topic actually about the use of adult dogs in puppy classes (which i also do) and what others think so i will do that later so i don't hijack this thread with my thoughts on that!!

The process has definitely been started Nek (i've seen the dog) i think Kharn just wants info for the owners to be able to continue from here.

When she runs away, does she appear to be having fun? Or is she stressed and worried? If its the former, she probably bolts because its been heavily reinforced, ie she has a great time every time she does it. If its the latter, she may be insecure and has coped in the past through running so continues to do so. These are just guesses of couse as we can't see what the dog is doing. I would definitely condition a recall command first and work on a long line- gradually increasing the distance so that she can't build up the speed she would on a full length long line. I would also clip 2 leads to the dogs collar and unclip one and then continue to do some obedience- start to break down the association of hearing the lead unclip and immediately bolting. Once you have done these things, i would then consider if needed (under the guidance of a professional) using a remote training collar with low level stimulation. I think its a life threatening issue if a dog bolts so woudl want to look at resolving it asap. What is Willow like with her recall at training classes?

Have you done any training with them before? I would suggest you look at getting a professional to come and help you to get you started as every dog is different so online advice for this kind of problem could actually make the issue worse.

I have a booklet for adopted shelter dogs that might be helpful? I'll email it to you and you can see if its suitable. ETA and thats great for Jack too!!

I would teach a send to a bed first. And then controlled interactions on lead after that.

My boy has ED and HD in all 4 joints. He is now close to 2 years old and the following things have helped him- - Underwater treadmill and swimming to improve his muscles - Cartrophen injections - Bowen massage (this one has been vital) - Regular exercise- controlled during his sore periods The pain seems to have settled since he has stopped going through growth spurts which i believe is common. He now only has sore days every now and then which we manage. The only surgery we would consider is hip denervation at some point which would take away the hip pain- both hips can be done at once and the recovery time is only 3-5 days. Other surgery is not an option due to it being all the jpints and the long recovery time etc. Good luck- its not easy.

Funny you should say that Mum to Emma- Michael at Glen Eira always talks to the dogs and cats- puppy dog and puss cat he calls them I wouldn't see a vet that didn't talk to the dogs as particularly with one of my girls, it maks her feel more at ease.

Forgot about Shaw Pet Services- would definitely be a good one to contact

I think Planet K9 have something out there? I don't know of anywhere else close by. Would Four Paws be too far? If not, i'd highly recommend you get in touch with them

I think small dogs should be trained and socialised too. Its not acceptable for any dog to rush another or behave in an aggressive manner. But i also know i can't control what other people do so i put my effort into training and socialising my dogs as much as possible to deal with reactive or rushing dogs as best as possible. I'm in the fortunate position to be able to socialise my dogs to be non reactive to reactive dogs so they do ignore them when they see them. But i also know its not a simple easy or practical process for many and that not all dogs would be able to do this anyway. You'd be amazed at how many small dog owners have no concept of what could happen if a larger dog reacted to them and attacked them. I think if they had more of an idea about the consequences, they may be more inclined to seek help.

Bit far away but Dr Michael Righeti at Glen Eira Vet in Ormond is amazing and i love everything about the clinic and staff there. Very reasonably priced too

I have used it with horses before. not sure where to get it though

If anyone is looking for a small breed dog for dog sports, there is a little Sily terrier x at AAPS in Melbourne who we tested today and is AWESOME! She has high usable prey drive- not just crazy and could easily be trained for agility, obedience or flyball. She adores playing ball and is super responsive to training- would be easy to get focus from her. She knows sit and can walk well on lead with a little work. She is friendly with other dogs (although a little aroused when a big dog started trying desperately to play with her) but would be too much for cats or kids. She does need a little work with jumping and mouthing. She is not on the website and i don't have a photo but she is also super cute! I can't quite remember her age but she is only young- less than 2 i think. Contact the shelter if you are interested (not me) www.aaps.org.au A little dog like this is really not very common! ETA She is in no danger as AAPS do not have time limits

You need to look up extinction training. Unfortunately this will now be a much more difficult process because you have accidentally provided attention for the very thing you would like your little pup to stop. Crate training may be a good in betwen step- meaning you can get the pup used to being separated by a physical barrier while inside with you and then transfer this training to outside. You are going to need to go through some crying and NOT give in- even when the behaviour escalates which it almost certainly will the first few times you do it. Its vital you do this now so that your puppy develops into a well adjusted adult with a degree of independence. I am really quite surprised that your puppy school trainer didn't go through what to do- did you mention the problem to him/ her?

Does that mean 20 minutes without crying? Or 20 minutes is the point that he starts to shake etc? Lappiemum asks good questions as well and the answers will be helpful in determining what may assist you.

Great ideas from the other posters. Just one other thing to consider- if you are starting puppy school in a week or two, why not give the trainer a call now and see if they can give you a little bit of basic advice beforehand?

When you have left him to cry how long have you left him for?