Cosmolo

Great post Erny and yes i have so that makes quite alot of sense. However i have seen others where that does not happen and yet there is every reason to suggest the initial behavioural response was created through obvious fear but that no longer remains. The latter not as common as the former IME. I find these sorts of discussions challenging and interesting because you can ponder thoughts and then get nice clear posts like your last one erny. Here is another question though- for those dogs that have the aggression blocked in the presence of the stimulus and then revert to more obvious fearful body language and behaviour- how do we know to attribute that to the stimulus and not the act of blocking the aggressive response- which may create fear and or anxiety in itself?

This is where it becomes interesting and complicated IMO If a dog (who was fear aggressive) has learned through experience and repetition that aggression results in success and becomes extremely confident in that behaviour- would you still describe the dog as fearful at the time of reacting even though the behaviour may be completely incompatible? ( i think of the example of teaching a dog to snarl and growl on command- and the question could you do it without the associated emotion. i am extending this theory to types of growls, body language etc) I am really just thinking out loud here so probably not making a great deal of sense. :D I find definitions of things like fear aggression very very interesting and i think it makes for good discussion- like kelpie i's comment for aggressive behaviour always coming through some kind of fear, i think you can make a great case either way. The beauty of dog training. For Bub- these are the sorts of discussions that have trainer/ behaviourist minds ticking and swirling when i am sure many people think we're nuts!! ETA agree with the others re the predatory behaviour but i laso understand why some people refer to it as aggression as the end result can be similar. How do you define aggression? Broad definition, not the individual types

Sorry erny- i meant that not just the dogs body language changes to appear more confident but that the actual thing that drives the behaviour changes from fear to something else.

The other thing that i think is important to remember is that a behaviour can start for one reason, say through fear, and then through repetition and experience the dog changes and is actually truly no longer fearful. So technically, some may diagnose fear aggression and that may be the correct cause but not necesarily accurate in terms of what is happening now. ETA Many different people will look at the same dog and see different things as well. I saw a trainer recently who was convinced that a particular dog was highly, highly stressed when all i saw was very distracted and other people saw nothing at all!

I don't think there are any one size fits all methods either way- i disagree that you should never use any compulsion for a fear aggressive dog. A recent client had a dog who was fear aggressive with dogs and desperately lacked confidence with people. Positive reinforcement alone was not enough to change the behaviour which came about through poor critical period socialisation. An e collar, used with low level stimulation and we now have a different dog- more confident in every possible way and exceptional obedience regardless of whether dogs are around or not. She does not play with other dogs (except her companion) but can cope with every practical situation she needs to, using coping skills other than reacting. The difference in this dogs confidence is amazing- so much so that i was even a little surprised myself at the difference! If people aren't comfortable with using an appropriate punisher or negative reinforcement, that's absolutely fine. Everybody should make choices based on what they feel their dog needs and what they're comfortable with. Doesn't mean others need to include/ exclude those things though.

Agree with what the others have said- it is important that you limit any oportunity for Ollie to practice the behaviour. We have a few clients in Rosanna too. Well done for rescuing both your dogs too

Great stuff I'm sure she will enjoy her new home.

Can i also just add a word of caution to where people get their information on particular trainers from- particularly when it comes from one person, an unknown or online source. I have heard descriptions of things that i found terrible for one reason or another and then upon speaking to others who were involved, discoverd that the recount of events was perhaps untrue or at least the initial view i was presented was very one sided or misconstrued. I am honest with people when they ask and happy to say i would use aversives when appropriate in combination with plenty of rewards. :rolleyes: Everyone i have spoken to has been very happy and somewhat relieved to hear it is not a one size fits all approach.

Does joe public care what trainers call themselves? Probably not. Clients get the benefit of explanation, demonstration and viewing results and i think this will always be more successful than trying to place trainers in boxes depending on what tools they may or may not use.

Why does everything have to get so complicated..? I am a dog trainer who uses the most effective method to suit dog, owner and problem and i believe everything i use is humane. Still too long to type like Staranais though isn't it?!!!

I am happy to say i use corrections when deemed appropriate. I never used to be happy to say it because it wasn't politically correct- but now, whether someone calls me balanced or a trainer who uses aversives/ corrections doesn't bother me provided they don't then imply this means i'm in some way abusive.

Corvus i don't understand how you can say you haven't tried using punishment with Erik when you say in another thread you've scruffed him to stop him mouthing. What kind of behaviours can't be modified with rewards alone? Behaviours that are self rewarding where you cannot control the reward and IMO behaviours where it would be otherwise dangerous or injurious to not correct and stop the behaviour quickly. There are also situations where its not possible or sometimes practical to ignore. I understand you don't care if its faster Corvus- but when i am working with someone who has punctures all over their arm because their puppy keeps mouthing, i am going to advocate a correction of some kind because that person DOES care that its faster.

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...2918&st=105 Flyers in this link Sorry for hijack

I have heard good things about Mark Singer although don't know him personally. Alternately we're there ourselves in early November doing seminars, workshops and private lessons.

I got mine- Yay!!

Agree with what the others have said. I find it very very sad that people get asked to leave training because their dogs are being difficult- thats why they are there!!

Not sure but we run the one at the vet across the road. I wasn't aware that they had a new trainer until a few weeks ago as i think they were referring to moorabbin dog obdience before then.

We would definitely want to go- will email now.

How old is Connor?

Kitty, don't feel as though you're missing something you should know! Loose lead walking is not easy and certainly doesn't come automatically to most people and most dogs! I think a session or two with Jane Harper will really help

We run classes (short courses) on a Saturday afternoon but they are in Clayton South.

What kind of rewards do you use? What do you normally do when he doesn't come? How does he walk on lead when there are distractions? Does he like toys?

Thanks Guys- Clover, i have always looked at your signature with a little hint of jealousy as your JRT is just so gorgeous! Looking forward to having one of my own!

Crate or smaller area, bone with little meat on it and plenty of raw meat in hand. Sit at a distance (remembering that if you confine the dog and go too close, he may then feel the need to guard because he can no longer move the bone away) and throw him the raw meat while he's munching away. I'd do this a number of times as soon as possible. ETA- and agree with what Sandra said

Although she can jump a boundary fence, this may not make her a good agility dog. Do you know why she jumps the fence and how is she currently being contained- this information may help people to know whether they could be a suitable home rather than just knowing she is a fence jumper.