Erny

Huh?

Speaking for myself, Staranais, there is no way I would prescribe "PTS" without another opinion from a higher valued professional trainer/behaviourist being given. There is only one dog I can think of that I've dealt with where I admit the thought of "PTS" was higher on my 'list' than it ever was before. This dog was unpredictable and its aggression to humans was unprovoked and completely inappropriate. The reason "PTS" came to mind was because the owner was not in a position to put the work into the dog and due to lack of time, wanted to rehome it. The lifestyle and living conditions weren't really congenial to the dog's rehabilitation and the owner could not afford to alter that (or perhaps didn't want to). In that instance I did tell the owner that if he couldn't/wouldn't commit to working with the dog towards rehabilitation (including a blood work-up to rule out possible medical influences,) I could not condone re-homing (the latter is what he wanted me to 'sign off on') and that, of course, only left one option. I gave the owner another contact to reach for a second opinion (and in fact I strongly encouraged him to obtain that second opinion ...... I don't know if he did). I felt gutted on the drive back home - it was the first time that I had left a dog with the feeling of no-hope in my stomach, but I re-worked the meeting with the owner and his dog in my mind and I don't think there is any one thing that I would've (or could've) changed. The owner effectively left me with nothing to work with. I don't know what the dog's outcome was and to be honest I'm not sure that I would want to know.

I actually wholeheartedly agree with Corvus. Many people who are of the belief that physical punishments should be avoided at all costs (including if the only other alternative is pts) tend to structure propaganda on those who will use physical punishment when it is called for to suggest that there is some "thrill" gained by the handler administering the punishment. The only "thrill" I ever get is seeing the improved behaviour in the dog and harmony in the relationship between the dog and the owner as a result.

I guess if these 'groups' have vowed against the use of positive punishment they get to a point where there is no other option for them, nowhere else to go. Which narrows down the options for the dogs under their care/advice/instruction as well. ETA: Welcome back, HR. Hope you enjoyed your holiday .

There is nothing wrong with the correct use of a check chain. No one will be able to tell you whether it was the tool of choice for your dog, but the point is it has worked for you and from the sounds of it there have been no negative repercussions of doing so. We can only presume that you know how to use it and that you are able to judge its effectiveness and appropriateness. If your dog had been permitted its behaviour and if that had escalated, who knows what would have become of the dog. But if the behaviour continues in spite of what you have done, I'd recommend that you seek the services of a trainer/behaviourist to assist you - that person should have the qualifications/experience to be able to assess what method (correction or otherwise) is necessary and best (for all parties concerned - including the dog) to extinguish the behaviour in the quickest possible time. As for the grooming experience, I would not recommend that the same method of correction be applied without knowing first why the behaviour was exhibited. If it was through fear, a correction might only serve to increase that fear and make it worse. Without being able to see for ourselves, it is impossible to advise you in this respect. The groomer, assuming she/he is experienced in the job would possibly have an idea, although that doesn't necessarily mean he/she would have the skill level to be able to advise you on the best method for remedy. If the correction you gave has fixed the behaviour towards you and your family and harmony now rules, don't feel guilty, just move on. A properly applied and well-timed physical correction can be less stressful and more effective (especially but not only time economically speaking) for the dog than days/weeks/months of negative punishments. Not to mention a better outcome for the dog and owners than it would be if the behaviour had been allowed to worsen. The main thing that bothers me is that you sound quite uncertain and for that reason alone, should you need to remedy problematic behaviours such as what you describe in the future, perhaps getting someone to guide you would be helpful and offer you more assurance. ETA: Who knows? Perhaps if the dog had received a clear message such as that which you have delivered, he might not have been surrendered by his owners to a pound in the first place. But I caution anyone about using any training aid or restraint without knowing and understanding proper application and use. And that counts for head collars; check chains; PPCollars; E-Collars; and harnesses.

SK - it cost me the same, with postage ($58). You need to purchase it direct at this stage. But I think it is good stuff and it should last you a good amount of time. I've only ever used mine diluted (on and in almost everything) and the smell is quite strong and (the scent) lasts for a couple of days or so. Place smells neutrally fresh after that. It's helping me at the moment because I'm needing to cook chicken for each of my boy's meals at the moment. Assists in getting rid of the boiled chicken smell .

BD - I remember that . You'd also remember, I think, when someone brought their chook down. They had that on a harness as well. Dogs were kept at a distance so as not to stress the chook. And then there was the time we sequestered the horse and rider who just happened to be on the grounds at the time we were training. LOL .... not to mention us roping in the Mr. Whippey Van to be part of our socialisation class, when he happened to visit one warm summer's day. Those were the days .

They do, although if they suffer from skeletal discomfort, they often need to move around a bit. My boy has spondylosis. According to the Vet it is only very minor (although he's young) but I do tend to find that it's uncomfortable for him to stay in a crate for any great length of time. Last (and first) time I crated him for a period (2 hours at a stretch) he ended up with what we believe might have been an extreme cramp in his leg that left him lame for a couple of days. He has a large crate but I would opt for XL (or perhaps he has XL in which case I'd opt for XXL) except it wouldn't fit in the boot of my car (and could I lift it in and out? - but that's beside the point). He can and does curl up in the cooler weather, but he moves and switches sides through the night, as well as stretches out flat in between times. I notice that he opts for his flat snooza mattress as opposed to the snugly cushion type bed that he has. Dogmad - it is a very kind gesture that you make. One thing that I think makes it a bit easier for dogs to get in and out of kennels is if the kennel itself is a bit above the ground level. Not so difficult to heave the body up to get out. Watch for entrance size though - many kennels are made with limited entry sizes, the idea being that the smaller the entrance the more the dog is afforded weather protection and warmth. But it does mean that (especially bigger) dogs need to drop their backs a little to get in. That can be difficult for a dog that's suffering arthritis or the like. It would be easy enough to put it on a sturdy raised platform though and it means they don't have to drop their backs so much to enter. I've not used Igloo Kennels before, so unfortunately I can't give you any benefit of experience with them. I've had a look at the inflatables and they sound ok (and look quite comfy).

LOL ..... if you were thinking with your front brain you'd know it was a manner of speaking and in an attempt to be simplistic when details are unnecessary for the purpose of writing. You're right. "Doesn't matter". I presume you were being jovial by raising it? LOL

I wouldn't much bother with having thyroid tests conducted out here (ie Aussie). The tests are not full blood panel tests and the analysis of the results leave a bit to be desired, IMO. I sent my boy's bloods for testing and analysis by Dr Jean Dodds in the USA. The Vet out here, of course, drew the blood, and I organised the necessary paperwork (with the guidance of Dr Jean Dodds and the info on her website) and arranged for them to be sent to her by international courier. There's a bit more fiddling around (due to the paperwork and courier) but I think it is worth it to know that the results are more likely to be accurate. From memory, the cost to me in Aussie dollars was something like $211.00. $111.00 of that was the international courier fee. There was also the local Vet's fee for drawing bloods. What it would work out for you would depend on the USA/AUS exchange rate at the time. It's fairly good at the moment. I remember comparing the costs to me at the time, to the costs to someone else who had their dog tested locally. I think it worked out about $50.00 cheaper to have them done in Oz. It took one week from the drawing of the blood to receiving the test results. I think the average turn around is 7 - 10 days, which is pretty fast considering that a few of those days are taken up by the courier service delivery. If you go down this route, plan to have the bloods drawn on a Monday (equivalent to USA's Sunday) so that the weekend doesn't interrupt things. Here's a link to get you started, if you're interested. Welcome to Hemolife

I agree in essence, Nekhbet. Good publicity and education. It's simple to say, but it takes a lot of work with a lot of effort and costs a fair amount of money (when you take labour into account as well). Point being is are we supposed to advertise, advertise, advertise EVERY little thing we do, and spend time educating and pushing public support etc. etc. etc. from now until eternity, on the basis of "just in case the Government and other orgs decide to lobby against what we do" ??? It would be more fair if the Government stopped being swayed by certain groups to which it seems to have granted 'voice' to the exclusion of all others and started observing the rules of Natural Justice and Procedural Fairness. What you're suggesting is right, I grant that ...... but it shouldn't be that we have to prove ourselves before we are 'convicted' (so to speak). The laws MUST change. There MUST be a law written which prescribes that the Government has to observe Natural Justice and Procedural Fairness, whether they be legislating OR regulating. Hang on to your pink hats.

What Nekhbet said. Society is not setting the trends. People within authorities with an agenda are setting the trend. And leaving us no leeway. "Their way or the highway" attitude and it is suffocating. Their idea of democracy is "you can have a say in anything so long as what you say is what we want you to say and we won't hear any different". Hhhmmffpphh.

Oh wow, Dyzney ...... Good luck for tomorrow !!

Thanks for the heads up, Willow .

Hi Kirst Yes - I'm afraid I hurt the feelings of a number of clients that I see about their dog's behaviour issues, when I inform them their dog is too fat. But someone's got to say it, for their dog's sake and most people fortunately get past the fact that they didn't like to hear it and understand it is only because I have their dog's best interests at heart. Just as they do, except with no-one making a 'deal' about it I think they think it's not that bad. Ignorance begets ignorance and I agree that Vets need to (a) get out more and see what fit/good-weight dogs look like and (b) not be afraid to be the dog's voice.

If the chips aren't 'treated', then chewing them by itself isn't a problem (unless the habit is excessive). However, exploratory mouthing/chewing of things such as this (other examples would be of stones) can lead to dogs getting into the habit of swallowing them. THEN it becomes quite a health risk. The better option is to supervise (so you can teach) when he does have access to the bark chips and to prevent when you are not going to be there. That's about the only suggestion anyone can make in the absence of having a crystal ball. Some people don't have a problem and the pup grows through and out of its initial interest in doing this. Other dogs grow more and more into the habit (and that's when gestation of the object can start to occur). Are you able to put up a temporary barrier (as an option to getting rid of all your bark chips) around your garden beds? You might find this will be useful to protect other things whilst your pup is developing mentally. I normally mulch all my garden beds in readiness for summer months, but I didn't do that when my boy was a pup - would have been too new and too novel and therefore too much temptation. I also think that fine mulch is better as it isn't as inviting as bark chips for a pup to chew on.

Different strokes for different folks, as they say. Sounds to me she's thinking with her hind brain and needs to learn to think with the front brain. Not a great deal of learning occurs during hind brain drive. Sounds to me that a different technique is required and that her barking might be one of frustration. This technique often works, but not always. How long did you stick to the technique, and at what point was she barking?

Stitch - can you slow things down a bit, with her. I don't know the training method you've already been doing but (using "sit" as the example) can you go back to the beginning and use, say, a "guide show place" method instead? Normally I wouldn't go the "slow things down" route because I'm all for speed responses, but the barking could have come initially from confusion at not being clear about what you wanted but still wanting the reward from you.

Thanks SB. Sadly, it's not only Pugs that are affected by this (false) perception. For example I see many Rotties this way as well. I've referenced them before in another thread as the "Lab's second coming". But there are other breeds as well, that I commonly see overweight. Golden Retrievers are another. Beagles and JRT's another. However, the 'over weight' issue is not really restricted to any 'one' breed. ETA: (sort of) ..... I think some people, without necessarily being aware of it, like their dogs fatter too, for the fact that it renders the dogs less energetic and from their pov, more 'manageable' with the least amount of effort from the owner. Over the years I've worked with dogs who were in for B&T, who were too fat to properly cope with the standard of obedience that I otherwise knew they had the potential for. One owner I had to tell that until his (obese) dog lost some weight I would not work him for speedy recalls; fast drops; CoP; and releases etc. It just wouldn't have been fair. Poor dog.

Weren't pugs originally a bit taller than the breed standard of "today"? I must admit that I like pugs with a bit of leg (but still with that 'box' look so that the body length ratio is still in proportion). ETA: I use weight (scale measurements) standard as a guide only. It's the visual and 'feel' to me that bears the most importance.

You can if you wish. I don't generally use the clicker. I use my voice or certain mouth sounds. But that's just me - I find it easier and it suits us. Just be careful not to move on too quickly with something, before it's really properly understood by your pup. Continue to build on the basics and get them better and better and more and more reliable. Add in new things to keep the novelty value of learning going, for sure, but for example don't push distraction before distance before duration. Have a couple of things going at a time and go back to easier stuff the pup knows well in between. Training tricks is really good. They are fun for your pup and for you. ETA: Regards the walking, it is about how far you walk as well. Not great for puppy joints to do too much "pounding the pavement" (just to coin a phrase). The preferred physical exercise for pups is free running, where they are more inclined to stop when they tire. When you're out and about, pup will want to keep up with you no matter what.

In this instance, it would mainly be when I've been out, returned home and he's (very) excited to see me. I don't stop the CoP command routine, there are no "reward markers" and there are "NRM's" at the point of barking (both of which he's learnt very well) and I avoid any other interaction with him (eg physical, which is the acknowledgement he wants) until he stops with the barking. He does all of this at a small distance from me - ie I have not permitted physical interaction. In the process I'm also proofing his command responses, as he is doing them when he'd otherwise be leaping 10 feet in the air and bursting out of his skin. It's not an 'every time' occurrence. You're right though .... if I recognised that this routine was perpetuating, it might be due to a behaviour chain becoming learnt. But because I vary the CoP routine a lot (I'll include stay work in that as well, sometimes) and because it is not an 'every time' occurrence as aforementioned and because I do this routine (and others) at other times as well, I don't believe it will develop as a recognised behaviour chain.

No - No "loud" no's. We don't have to yell at our dogs, they hear perfectly well (all things being normal, that is). My Dad taught me that when people are debating, the one who raises his/her voice is the one who loses the argument. I tend to apply this philosophy to dog training as well. Simply lift the bowl back off the ground out of her reach the very moment she begins to "scoot" (or even hints at scooting). You can accompany this with a "no reward marker" such as "ah ah" or "oops" (said in neutral tone and neutral volume). It might take a few goes to get the message across that if she moves before being told she can go towards the food the food will move out of her reach, but it should work. She's only a little babe at this time, so don't have over-realistic expectations of her. Set her up to win and don't make her wait an eternity (more than a couple of seconds of waiting can be an eternity for a baby pup) before you give her the release to her food command. I agree with the suggestion of following the "TOT" program.

I sometimes think that even show dogs often carry more weight than they need or should. That's just my opinion, of course, and there are a good number out there that are just right.

I'd begin by getting the 'idea' of not barking going around the home first - skip going to training for a week or two. If you email me after you've worked on this at home with the suggestions I've made, including following "TOT" and let me know how things are going, we'll discuss further what you might be able to do when you go to training. Bear in mind that I am not seeing this dog, so it is impossible for me to assess what the barking is about. For example, when she's barking at you, it could be her way of (eg) 'demanding', whereas at training it could be anxiety based. So all I could do would be to give you educated 'tips' for you to try. But it will take a bit of dedication, patience and consistency on your part to determine whether my suggestion/s are going to be working. There is only so much that I can suggest to you over the internet and much can be lost in the translation.