Erny

Remember that when we vaccinate our dogs, we are giving them a controlled dose of the diseases we are vaccinating for and is something which the dog's immune system has to fight and conker. Once the dog's immune system has conkered those diseases from the vaccine, their bodies develop a memory of them and store in their system the knowledge of how to conker them again if/when they come into contact with them. This latter 'knowledge' is what is referred to as 'anti-bodies'. And the dog's system's ability to ward off the affects of those diseases as a result of those 'anti-bodies' is what we refer to as 'having immunity'. Apologies for my very basic way of explanation. The essence of my point here is that you could well expect your dog to be quiet and/or lethargic following the administration of a vaccine as not only is it moderately affected by the vaccine itself, its body is busy dealing with the diseases from the vaccine and much of its energy is being prioritised to getting over them. Following the 2nd (and last) of my boy's puppy vaccinations, I dosed him with some Active Manuka Honey merely to offer some additional support to his immune system which I knew would be under a certain amount of additional stress at the time.

Sorry - I wasn't meaning to suggest your client is not telling all Cosmolo (although of course, as you'd understand, we always wonder). The "missing info" could just as easily have been the omission of explanation by the previous trainer.

However in Cosmolo's OP, the suggestion is to stop exercise to reduce fitness rather than to devalue the person, suggesting this trainer is linking the dog's fitness level with the SA. The only thing that would come of that is a dog who perhaps isn't running anxiously around the yard so much because it tires more easily (although to be honest, I don't think any difference would be that noticeable - anxiety is adrenaline driven and that can keep a body going well beyond its normal energy thresholds), but cannot imagine how its fitness level would have any bearing on its anxiety level. Regardless, I agree with Kelpie-i. Not exercising the dog to devalue would most likely come with ignoring the dog other than only to give the necessary basic care. And that's a pretty extreme methodology to use, as I know Kelpie-i is also aware. IMO, exercise can help increase confidence and in part, that's what many SA dogs need. Exercise also assists with leadership as it is a time during which the owner can apply obedience practice. And leadership is what many SA dogs need. So no, I don't get this supposed "lower fitness = lower anxiety" theory. Whether I agree with what this trainer has said or not (and I'm inclined to "not"), I still think there's some information/explanation missing.

As has been mentioned, no-one here can really tell you the whats, whys, wherefores of your dog's behaviour nor estimate the severity/inappropriateness of it. Nor whether it is ok or not for you to continue with your agility activities with her. However, the above two selections of what you have written bothers me and I can't help but wonder if aggression has been there all this while .... with a possible escalation in these more recent times.

Thanks all. And Animalfriendly for the book reference as well. Would appear to be a good book to have as a learning and reference guide. Expensive, it seems. But good. Will pop that one on my 'wish list' . I don't think my boy has what your dog has, because it isn't as bad as all that. And in fact, I don't think they are as rough as they were when I first posted. I also think I was grabbing at straws back then, as I knew there was something wrong but was frustrated at not being able to determine what or why. Having said that, he has redness in between his pad on one of his pads. At first glance, it was as though something might have bitten him. I soaked it with salt water over a couple of days and when the redness had calmed down, noticed a bit of a split. That seemed to disappear, so I figured something he stood on might have knicked the skin, or something like a grass seed had worked its way out. He stopped licking at it for a bit but I notice he's started at it again. This time there is less redness and some of that redness is lower down, around the edge of one of the toe pads as well. I'm soaking it with salt water again and will refer to Carol when I next go back to see her. He's got a couple of other spots on his under belly as well. Not red. One has been there for a long time. I thought it was just a mark or a bit of dirt at first. But I see another now. I'll be having them checked out also, but for these next few days, treating it with Colloidal Silver. Not through anyone's direction, but just because. I have thought hot spots, but I'm unsure. These things are by the by though (not to suggest they don't warrant checking on) and could be the result of his system being 'down' for a while. I'll keep an eye out. He ate his full quota of breakfast this morning .

I think you've split hairs over the "large quantities" -vs- "overfeeding" interpretation Midol. Either way, your words "feed large quantities" is very much open to interpretation by others as meaning "over feeding". That may not be your intention, but if you're going to criticise others for how they've written things and the chance of misunderstanding, then perhaps best that you also check your own sentence structure before you tell others they've given "stupid advice". If someone told me to feed "large quantities" I would most likely do exactly that. And chances are that would most likely become akin to overfeeding. Depending on context, I think it is relative. What I feed my boy may well be a "large quantity" compared to what someone else's dog needs. But for my boy, it's not. Although in another context, I might say to someone I go through a large quantity of food. But again - that's a 'relative' term. "Large quantity" .... compared to what. So perhaps you should check yourself before you begin insulting and shouting down what others have said by calling it "stupid advice". And perhaps understand that the way you interpret what you write is not always the way other people interpret either. So perhaps watch for the pot/kettle syndrome, heh?

There is so much contradictory advice/suggestions. When it comes down to it, there really isn't any definite link to the cause of bloat. Save for stress - those that I have witnessed and heard of having suffered the condition have experienced stress in some shape or form. There was one dog that I saw showing the first signs of bloat. He was saved, thank goodness, because of early Veterinary attention. The Vet informed me there was nothing in the dog's stomach save for a bit of water. Personally, I don't think it is wise to remove access to water. Even if there was some vague link to moisture/dry food as having a bearing to bloat (if we're going to entertain that idea), I would suspect that the occasions when this combo was the culprit would be far less percentage wise than other health complications which could arise due to the absence of water to drink. Not to mention the salt content contained in commercially based foods - the dogs need water available. I agree with moderating water intake immediately after play, until the dog has settled down and stopped guzzling it as though it would run out tomorrow. Hey ..... wait a minute. With our recent drought and water restrictions - maybe they know something we're only thinking about.

Well, having just come home from that direction, I'd say that Newport would be a hop, skip and a jump to Keilor compared to what I've just travelled !!!

I don't worm my dog on the regular routine that most do. In your instance though, if my dog didn't look wormy and I had no reason to suspect worms, I wouldn't worry if I missed one worming. IMO, that's better than giving more than is necessary. ETA: Oops! I see she's already received the tablet.

Mandela has eaten all his meals over the last two days. They are smaller proportioned meals than what I would have him eat, but I didn't want to push my luck. Today he's already eaten the full quota of the lesser amount (if that makes sense) and I'm going to give him another in an hour or so. If he eats that, then he's about broken his record!!! He's also still receiving the goats' milk, cottage cheese and yogurt (I call it the "Lactating Diet"), and still loving it . The egg yolk here and there and almost once a week, a sardine. Carol suggested I slowly re-introduce meat to him, which I did once a few days ago. But his stools went sludgy and I'm not so sure he didn't seem a bit off afterwards. I'm afraid I'm watching him too much too frequently to be able to be certain of the tiny changes. For the moment I have decided to keep him on the Eagle Pack diet as well as the Lactating diet for the next week or so, seeing how things are looking up. I might then send away another stool sample to see if there is still the presence of blood. Feeding him raw meat (especially red) can influence this I believe and to test for it the Vets want him to not have it for at least a week. So I'll wait for the time being, although I am anxious to get him back to eating bones again as soon as possible, especially for his teeth sake. He is so full of energy and well-being at the moment. A visit to Mum and Dad's property yesterday saw him tearing around like a looney . His coat is rich and lustrous - he could still do with some more weight on but if he keeps eating as he is, that shouldn't take long to put on. I'm going back to see Carol early'ish next week (allowing for Easter). I expect she'll definitely notice a difference. Thanks BD - it is worrying and I will admit to having my moments of panic and temptation to rush to back to the Vets for fear I am ignoring something that I shouldn't. I don't think he's out of the woods yet, but certainly seems to be getting there. Touch wood. How's your "lead up" to the specialty going? RL - thanks for the well wishes. It's great that he is eating more enthusiastically of late. It'll be even better when I can rely on his appetite. ETA: Gave him a 3rd meal (seeing as he ate the 2nd one all up) and he at all of that up too . Been out and just got home. He's looking for more. But me thinks he's had enough for one day .

Oh Pax!! You rained on PF's parade !!! PF : Prima Hyena

Was the advice via a franchise org? If it was, then it gives me an idea of why that advice was given. And I don't agree with it under the circumstance you describe/refer to. Some reduction in superfluous attention - yes. But reduce exercise to nothing for 2 weeks? Doesn't ring true or well for me. My highlights Yes it often does. And depending on how that has learnt to be expressed by the dog as to how and what one does to improve on it. But any external link that is helping to feed the dog's anxiety needs to be broken/weakened.

Don't sell yourself short. The mere fact you could even remember names enough to Google on is a step ahead of me .

I have for a long time believed that there is a link between SA and Leadership (not necessarily to the exclusion of genetics). So IMO Kelpie-i, Brenda's methods which at their core IMO help to improve the relationship between dog and owner, would certainly not go astray. I also think that there is a link between hypothyroidism and anxiety in some (many?) cases. Cosmolo - I still think you need more info or clarification on exactly what the 'trainer' told/explained to your client. I can't help but think there was more to it than that. Unless, of course, the advice was that of the franchise organisation I was thinking of earlier.

Cosmolo - are you specifically referring to "separation anxiety"? (You didn't mention that in your OP, so I'm unsure.) Is it THAT condition for which this 'advice' of not exercising dogs is suggested to be applied? I do know of a 'regime' by a certain franchise company who seems to have a standard way of dealing with just about all behaviour problems and part of that is to not give the dog walks/exercise for 2 weeks. I wonder if this is where this (seemingly 3rd hand) information is coming from? I'd like to know a bit more before I put a response together as there are "yes's" and "no's" to this, depending on the specifics of the circumstances.

Really? Thanks Midol - you've accused me of giving "stupid advice". In your opinion, perhaps. But feeding "large" quantities of food (beyond what the pup needs for nutritional purposes) can actually encourage faster growth spurts. I know with my own (current) pup. He was underweight/undernourished and within 3 days of coming here began to show verging severe carpal laxity syndrome. It was a very fine balance for me to feed the right amount for nutritional purposes as well as not to encourage too much of a growth spurt in order to give his bones and ligaments a chance of catching up with each other and to avoid potentially permanent bone structure problems later. However, given that you say the advice I have given (which was to not over feed for the sake of weight gain only) is stupid, I'd be very interested to read from you of your dietary knowledge and the affects/effects on bone and ligament growth.

Lordy, PF. Is there anything you don't know? You and your memory retrieve skills continues to amaze me. Cheers Erny

If there's more growling as a result of your pup being a little s#$t (as they can be ) towards your older dog and you think it will escalate to more than just your older dog putting pup in his place (I love it when they do that well), then I'd be inclined to put puppy in his crate or pen to give your older dog a break, rather than the other way around. Not punishment for your pup, mind. Just more of a 'settle down'. ETA: Your puppy looks such a little cutey .... and cheeky . Your older dog looks very good for his age. He's a shep x ? I don't see any shep in him, but then some crosses can look nothing like what one would expect from a mix breed mating. Doesn't matter - he sounds like he's a lovely dog and I agree with Kelpie-i ..... if he was doing more than just chastising, you would have seen blood. Ears puncture very easily (and bleed like there's no tomorrow) so it sounds to me as though your boy has great bite inhibition.

LOL .... can't 'talk' at the moment - I'm still cleaning up the garage!!! . I won't get it all done tonight, but at least I've nearly cleared space so I can fit the car back in!!! Seriously though, Andisa ..... . You've been a savior. I'm going to need another couple of bottles of goats milk tomorrow, I think. Being a Sunday, I don't like to disturb you and will be able to stretch what I have left out until Monday, unless you're around tomorrow and are up for a visitor ;).

.... I just wanted to secure a seat!! At first, it appeared that seats were all about gone. Grabbed what I could . I don't see much of CM as I don't have pay TV. So at least for interest sake, I'll explore the 'on-line tuition' .

Thanks AnnieK. At the moment I am being cautious so I'm following Carol's advice as closely as I can. I'll mention these flakes to her though. With regards to my boy's diet (and having spoken to Carol this morning) I am re-introducing meat - gradually, and pretty much one thing at a time. If I don't do things singularly I'll not know what food caused what if I mix it all up too much. Today he's eaten a couple of chicken necks. He took them from me and then dropped them. Didn't rush into them as he would normally do. There's good and bad in that because he used to swallow them whole in his eagerness for them. Today he chewed them up before he ate them. I'm not sure what the initial tentativeness was about though. Cleaning the garage out ( ..... a BIG job I've been putting off for a long time) to make some room for the freezer that is soon to come. When I'm done with that I'll head down to the butcher's to get some chicken wings and see how things go with those as well. But first have to deal with the mess I am making in the process of cleaning up. I've barely made a dint in the job ahead of me

I think I got that too. But I can't remember when the month starts and finishes. Need to go back to fish out my email.

I believe PetStock will/do insist on some formal qualification/experience. Pro-K9 will be running block-classes at the PetStock Pakenham store, commencing after Easter. Maximum 10 pups. Bookings are being taken now.

Small up-date : As at tomorrow morning it will have been one week since I began the holistic treatments. Noticeable change is that my boy seems somehow 'stronger' and bouncier (you should have seen him race around for ages when we were at the beach a couple of days ago!!!) This has a tendency to fluctuate a little bit but I think it is a case of three steps forward, one back. I'm not sure yet - one week is such a short time within which to be able to determine any definite pattern. As far as eating is concerned - he still doesn't much. But that too could be a case of "three steps forward, one back" as on a day here and there he's eaten more of his EP food than he has on others. He grazes - I have been permitting grazing/free feeding in this instance, although normally I would not have it that way - but he generally won't eat it all or sometimes much in one sitting. But he seems to be getting through more quantity through the day than he did this time one week ago. He's still eating under his quota though. On the other hand ............. he goes spare for his goats milk; cottage cheese; and yogurt. An egg a few times a week. Sardines once or twice per week. I've finally purchased a freezer and will be able to begin to stock up direct from the goats' milk supplier rather than depleting Andrisa's stock which she has so kindly been permitting me to purchase from her - a couple at a time given I can't fit much in the ordinary fridge-freezer that I have at the moment. I'll need to source a cottage cheese supplier who might be able to provide the product to me cheaper in bulk. For the time being I've been buying the little containers of it from the supermarket. And another definite good thing has come out of all of this. I've taught him to "take a tablet". He will take and swallow each tablet and does so quite promptly so he can have his piece of cheese after each one. It is so much easier than having to disguise it in food. (Cosmolo - if you get to read this, I found he was becoming suspicious of taking the 'treats' from me once he began to realise a tablet was enclosed, which is why I changed tack on the whole exercise. I know that you too have had problems in this regard with your boy. Have you tried teaching him to "take a tablet"? Contact me if you need some help/hints with what I did.) My boy is still too thin but Carol has explained that what he is getting (her treatment inclusive) is enough to sustain and that trying to ply more (different) food just at the moment will result in his system working to try to deal with the digestive system rather than spending its energy on recovering the digestive system. I'm in contact with Carol and we're taking things a few days at a time. ETA: Oh - and he seems to have recovered his joy for eating carrots and apples. He used to love these but they were 'treats' he went 'off' when this trouble all began a couple of months or so ago. I don't feed much of either, but they are things that he can at least crunch on, seeing as just for this hopefully small moment, I've not returned to feeding RMB's.

Have PM'd you back, Tony & Emma.