Need Some Help With The Clicker

[Lemonlime]

I have a 4 month old pup who starts obedience training on Sunday. For the first time ever, I am attempting positive reward training using a clicker (used to use check chains).

I am having lots of fun and my before unmotivated pup is quite enthusiastic about clicker training.

Before every session (which is kept short), I charge the clicker. She learnt sit in 2 minutes but drop took quite a bit longer. She has finally got the hang of drop and is offering it to me now.

I would like to keep going and move onto shake hands (which she has offered before and was rewarded). She seemed to be picking up what to do and offered me her paw several times, and click and reward.

But I am finding that she seems confussed and because we have practiced drop so much, that is what she keeps offering to me. How can I get her to stop offering me drop everytime? :D

Ahhh im new at this clicker stuff, but I must say it is lots of fun and pup seems to love it.

[Arya]

Firstly she is only very young so this is normal for behaviour to drop in and out and for confusion to occur. Just relax, enjoy and go with the flow :D Because of your good foundation training with the clicker and treat if she does go off as she changes and grows mentally, she will come back to it fairly quickly. Offering the drop like that, or any other behaviour that the dog knows it can do well is called 'superstitious behaviour'. When they are unsure of what you want, they pull something out of the bag and hope for the best LOL. Hey don't we humans do this too sometimes? My dog 'speaks' when this happens. Or offers a paw. What you need to do is simply ignore completely. Do not correct as the dog is trying to learn what you want. Just ignore. Be careful. No facial expression. Nothing. Give NOTHING that could be misconstrued as a reward, even a 'oh you are a funny, silly billy' or anything cos it looks cute. Just gently sit the dog back up and try again. Keep training sessions extremely short for a young pup. Dont train all your new exercises in one session. (You may know this, am just repointing it out in case you don't) And watchyour timing. Are you sure you are capturing the exact behaviour you want by clicking at the exact time the dog offers the paw, or partially offers what you want and you are working towards the desired goal? This is why I like my voice in preference to the mechanical clicker. My voice is quicker.... for me, that is. For you, it's up to you what you find best. WHen you charge the clicker now the dog knows it, don't do it too much. It becomes almost like freebies that way. Just enough to get the dog going.

Hope all that helps!!!

[Lemonlime]

Thanks for taking the time to reply Arya :D

I have been using verbal praise as well as the clicker, I find it helps to hold her attention. If she offers the behaviour im after, I say "YES", click and food reward. (Not sure if that is right, but it seems to be working ok).

I am doing 2 x 5-10 minute sessions per night and have been working on sit and drop, but thought I would introduce shake hands, as she seems to offer it easily.

If you had any more tips for me, going on the info I have given you, I would love some :D

[Lemonlime]

Just had to add, I just did another short session with her and she learnt shake hands!!!!!!! :D Thanks Arya :D

[Staff'n'Toller]

Tape your mouth shut!! :D :D

In the words of Kerrie Haynes-Lovell..."trust the bridge". You probably don't need to say Yes as well, the click is very motivating in itself.

You also don't need to recharge the clicker each time- your dog gets it. :D

Just be careful when you are training new things that you help as much as possible, dogs offer all sorts of other behaviours when they are being free-shaped out of sheer confusion about what you want, but when they aren't being rewarded for behaviours they will start to get frustrated and shut down on you.

Mel.

Edited April 22, 2008 by Staff'n'Toller

[dogdude]

I aggree with Mel...............you are using the marker "yes" (which is what the clicker is designed for). If dog responds well to yes.........and your timing with it is good (used at the exact moment of great work)........then chuck the clicker in the bin and replace it with "ok" to release to reward.

[kelpiechick]

I aggree with Mel...............you are using the marker "yes" (which is what the clicker is designed for). If dog responds well to yes.........and your timing with it is good (used at the exact moment of great work)........then chuck the clicker in the bin and replace it with "ok" to release to reward.

The 'click' does not release the dog to reward (and neither should a bridge word such as 'yes') It is a marker that tells the dog 'you offered the behaviour I wanted and a reward is coming.' Still need a release word.

There is nothing wrong with using a word instead of a clicker (agree you don't need both) but I don't know what it is - I have trained my last 2 dogs with clicker and there is a big difference in the attitude they bring to working with me, so I wouldn't be chucking mine in the bin just yet. The look on their face when the clicker comes out is priceless.

When teaching a behaviour you need to break it down into as many little steps as possible before getting to your final goal. (This is called shaping) The big mistake that a lot of people make is going for too much too soon. (eg: when teaching to shake hands, expecting the dog to lift its paw up a fair way off the ground) You need to aim very small, especially with such a young dog, so that you can reward every approximation toward the end behaviour.

Is there anything that causes your dog to lift its paw just a tiny bit ? (eg: if I sit on the floor next to one of mine and put my hand on the floor, then he usually puts his paw on my hand, so if I wanted to teach shake hands I would begin there and click that - then I would gradually lift my hand higher and higher until I had the height I wanted, then I would shape position. ) This may take many sessions and I would not move on to the next step until I was satisfied with the one before.

Here are some good websites about clicker training that may help you.

www.clickandtreat.com

Go to clicker articles for a basic introduction - including the explanation why a clicker is more precise than using your voice.

www.clickerdogs.com

Also do a search for 'Karen Pryor' and find her website - it's changed since I last used it so don't have a current address.

There are also some videos on Youtube showing dogs being trained to shake hands. (need to do a search sorry)

Hope this helps.

[Mornir]

I agree with most of the above, but just wanted to add that 5-10 minutes is probably too long, especially for a pup. REALLY short, like ad break length short.

Good luck, clicker training is awesome :rolleyes: and well done on making the switch from punishment to reward training

[Ptolomy]

Many many years ago when I first started clicker training - I tried it with my kids, to see how good my timing was and how frustrated they became when i got it wrong. The idea was for my son to go from the kitchen down the hall to the bedroom and to turn on his bedroom light. I gave him a bowl and every time I clicked I gave him a lolly to put in the bowl. Its an interesting exercise, especially when the kids can voice their frustration at not knowing what I wanted and how mistiming a click can send them off on a completely different path.

Have to agree 5-10 minutes for a 4 month old pup is too long - break the 5 minutes up into 5 x 1 minute sessions and don't just limit yourself to shaking hands - start teaching the dog to pick up a ball or to hold a toy, to give you attention by sitting and staring at you, to walk backwards, to roll over ......the list goes on and on and on.

Good luck - your will find yourself consistently smiling at how your dog is encouraged to think and what they offer you.

[ShellyBeggs]

I aggree with Mel...............you are using the marker "yes" (which is what the clicker is designed for). If dog responds well to yes.........and your timing with it is good (used at the exact moment of great work)........then chuck the clicker in the bin and replace it with "ok" to release to reward.

The 'click' does not release the dog to reward (and neither should a bridge word such as 'yes') It is a marker that tells the dog 'you offered the behaviour I wanted and a reward is coming.' Still need a release word.

There is nothing wrong with using a word instead of a clicker (agree you don't need both) but I don't know what it is - I have trained my last 2 dogs with clicker and there is a big difference in the attitude they bring to working with me, so I wouldn't be chucking mine in the bin just yet. The look on their face when the clicker comes out is priceless.

When teaching a behaviour you need to break it down into as many little steps as possible before getting to your final goal. (This is called shaping) The big mistake that a lot of people make is going for too much too soon. (eg: when teaching to shake hands, expecting the dog to lift its paw up a fair way off the ground) You need to aim very small, especially with such a young dog, so that you can reward every approximation toward the end behaviour.

Is there anything that causes your dog to lift its paw just a tiny bit ? (eg: if I sit on the floor next to one of mine and put my hand on the floor, then he usually puts his paw on my hand, so if I wanted to teach shake hands I would begin there and click that - then I would gradually lift my hand higher and higher until I had the height I wanted, then I would shape position. ) This may take many sessions and I would not move on to the next step until I was satisfied with the one before.

Here are some good websites about clicker training that may help you.

www.clickandtreat.com

Go to clicker articles for a basic introduction - including the explanation why a clicker is more precise than using your voice.

www.clickerdogs.com

Also do a search for 'Karen Pryor' and find her website - it's changed since I last used it so don't have a current address.

There are also some videos on Youtube showing dogs being trained to shake hands. (need to do a search sorry)

Hope this helps.

I agree with kelpie chick!!!

I also find the click offers more reward than 'yes'......

And i have no problem using the treat as bait to shape the behaviour I want..............rather than free shaping.

Eg/ to teach spin I had the treat in 1 hand (clicker ready in the other hand).....as they followed the treat around just 1/4 turn it was click and treat. increasing to a half turn, a whole turn and now several turns. then repeat the other way.

same for roll over and bow....and a few others.

I find using the treat as bait to be much faster in getting the desired action than free shaping and when you have a dog or pup that gets bored quickly they seem to enjoy the speed of the learning much much more.

[leopuppy04]

Hey Ptolomy - I hear ya! Have you ever played the game "Genabacab"?! It's much the same thing, but boy - you can get really frustrated because sometimes you have NO idea what on EARTH they want us to do! Our poor dogs!

CS - I too think that a 5-10min session is too long... not only for a pup, but also for a dog who is *experienced* with clicker training and you are 'shaping' a brand spanking new exercises. It takes a lot of concentration and energy for them to work out what we want them to do, so we must keep it short, sweet and the rewards flowing often.

You don't need to charge the clicker anymore - she would know what it means.

I also agree that you don't need the 'yes' and the click... although I tend to chatter away when the dog does something really good, you do need to (especially when shaping) tape your mouth shut (very hard for me!).

Have you thought of using a NRM (no reward marker) to tell the dog that what they are doing (eg: dropping, or in Leo's case, backing up and waving his paw madly in the air) is NOT going to get them a treat this time! Sometimes it is so hard to not reward but you must keep your eyes on what you are trying to achieve (eg: when teaching leo to weave by the 2x2 method, he did go through the poles backwards!!)....

Keep in mind also that you can clicker train without shaping - for example cueing or luring a behaviour and clicking the moment the dog gets it right. Both training techniques are independent of each other :rolleyes:

Lastly.... have you tried shaping games: eg: 101 things to do with a cardboard box?!?!

[dogdude]

I also find the click offers more reward than 'yes'......

Personally........I found it makes no difference at all...........they both mean the same thing.

I also find it a little better when you start off the exercises in the trialling ring. When the judge asks if you are ready, I answer a very clear "yes".....and it normally helps get good animation from the dog going into the start of the exercises.

As you can tell.......i'm not exactly a fan. :rolleyes: They're just a gimmick to me.

I really cant understand how they are better for "uncoordinated people with no timing" ? If you can press a button in time then surely you can say "yes"?

[JulesP]

I try not to add in too many different exercises too. I like to cement each one before moving on to a new one. And make sure that the exercises aren't going to conflict. For instance if you were teaching drop with a hand signal to the ground and then asked for a paw by putting your hand out near the ground then I imagine the pup would get confused and offer drop instead.

I use a verbal yes rather than a clicker as I like to train all the time and don't want to carry the clicker around. ie when walking around the garden I might ask for a drop.

[Leema]

I like teaching numerous behaviours at once - otherwise we both get bored! But to avoid confusing Clover, I have a different area of the house for each... e.g. She is learning handstand near the steps, we learn back and distance behaviours in the lounge room, "come" in the doorway, "crate" in the bedroom, and "bounce" in the dining room. It's only when we're solid in doing a behaviour in a certain area that we move to a new area.

Just an idea...

Otherwise you have received some good advice so far.

[Lemonlime]

Wow, thanks everyone

Some great advice that has been taken on board.

I must say, I have never seen my pup so enthusiastic as she is when she hears that click, and she is picking it up so fast. Tonight when I got home from work, I retested her to see if she really caught on yesterday, and sure enough, she did sit, shake hands, and drop for me :D

I am having lots of fun with the clicker and am so proud when she offers sit, shake or drop to me, so it wont be going in the bin just yet

[Leema]

Also, have a look at Sue Ailsby's training levels... I find them really fun and simple instructions for clicker training many behaviours:

http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/%20Dog1/levels.html

[Lemonlime]

Oh, and I will try to keep my mouth shut :D

[Kelpie-i]

dogdude:Personally........I found it makes no difference at all...........they both mean the same thing.

I also find it a little better when you start off the exercises in the trialling ring. When the judge asks if you are ready, I answer a very clear "yes".....and it normally helps get good animation from the dog going into the start of the exercises.

As you can tell.......i'm not exactly a fan. They're just a gimmick to me.

I really cant understand how they are better for "uncoordinated people with no timing" ? If you can press a button in time then surely you can say "yes"?

DD, your "Yes" to the judge during trials is more a "cue to work" for your dog rather than being the same as the conditioned sound of a clicker for teaching exercises. It is evident that you may be confused between the different training methodologies here.

The clicker works wonders for anybody who is uncoordinated and with no timing, as the messages from the brain to finger are far quicker than the messages from the brain to mouth. Therefore, these people pick up the concept very quickly. What's more, using a verbal marker can result in emotions being vocalised more easily which the dog picks up on. The clicker delivers a neutral and consistent tone.

I have been an instructor for many years, preferring to use conventional methods in my earlier days, but I can tell you that absolutely nothing comes close to the enthusiasm created by and the precision of, the clicker.

You must get over your fear of the object (or fear of using a different tool with different methodology) before you can really appreciate it. :D If that fails, then it's each to their own!

Edited April 23, 2008 by Kelpie-i

[JulesP]

No I get what DD is saying. He is sneakily giving his dog a 'reward' with his yes. My dogs love the word yes, you get instant attention and happiness because they have been conditioned to the word. Mind you I tend to say yes in a bit of a purring voice so a male judge may think that is a bit weird :D

Glad you are having fun with Rain Counting Sheep!

[dogdude]

Hi Kelpie-i

Not confused with methodology.......used the clicker before with great success....but in my personal experiences thus far.......no more successful than using a marker word.

When I trial, I give a cue to work (hop in) but often the judge will waffle on for varying lengths of time and I find a "yes" (even when judge does not waffle) just gives that extra level of animation that the others say when their dogs hear the clicker noise. (trick dog into thinking a reward is just around the corner)

I'm sure though being a pro, that your experience in judging comparisons as far as levels of excitement where Clicker noise v marker words would far outweigh mine if you have trained hundreds of dogs. Just commenting on my own experiences :D