menacebear Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Hi guys, between my partner and I we have 8 medium to large dogs and feeding dry is starting to get too expensive. We are feeding either bonnie or cobber working dogs food but i'm hoping to switch to half raw and half dry. I just bought the dogs 10kg of raw chicken mince and am wondering how much dry to swap for how much raw (i'm a little anal about feeding) Currently we have 3 dogs on 4 cups of food per day, 3 on 2 cups per day and 2 on 3 cups per day. The dry food weighs around 100g per cup. Can i do a clean swap? 100g dry for 100 raw or is the raw higher in fat? We have 3 flyball dogs who we don't want to gain or lose any weight and I'd prefer that the others didn't either. I'm thinking of mixing the chicken mince with some frozen vegies also, is it worth doing this? Any help or advise would be very much appreiciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 I would look in more details into raw diets (do a search here for BARF or prey diet). Mince+veggies it probably not a balanced diet as you most likely don't have the right meat/bone ratio. Mince could possibly be minced chicken frames, in which case you are probably are not giving your dogs enough meat. Some people here feed 100% raw, some mix with dry, some people just use dry. I think it comes down to a personal preference. Whatever ratio of raw/dry you decide, please make sure that the raw part is balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 It's not really that hard to balance a raw diet. My raw diet is basic. 50% meat, 50% bones. No veges for the sibes. Fruit + Veges for the shep just because he likes them. Sibes are on about 1.5% of their body weight. Incredibly slow metabolisms, for an active sporting dog I'd start at around 3% of their body weight and adjust depending on whether they can/lose weight. GSD is on close to 6% of his body weight in bones/mince then veges on top. He is growing though. He gets a block of mince (frozen) then a large bone each day. Usually two apples in his crate (one each time he is put away) plus a carrot whenever I feel like giving him one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puggy_puggy Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 If you feed a RAW/BARF diet then it should be approx 2% of your dogs ideal body weight per day. Chicken mince and frozen veggies is not a suitable diet at all. You should have approx 80% Raw meaty bones and 20% veggies, muscle meat, offal & dairy Google up and do some reading. BARF Feeding Suggestion for larger dogs.... MONDAY AM - Chicken Necks/wings/carcuss PM - Beef & Slops TUESDAY AM - Kangaroo Tail PM - Fish & Slops WEDNESDAY AM - Chicken Necks/wings/carcuss PM - Dog mince (minced chicken carcuss) & Yoghurt & Slops THURSDAY AM - Lamb bone PM - Kangaroo & Slops FRIDAY AM - Chicken Necks/wings/carcuss PM - Dog mince (minced chicken carcuss) & Slops SATURDAY AM - Lamb bone PM- Fish & Slops SUNDAY AM - Kangaroo Tail PM - Dog mince (minced chicken carcuss) & Slops BARF SLOPS INGREDIENTS & METHOD Things I always include: - container of alfala spouts - bunch of spinach (roots cut off) - bag of carrots - bunch of celary - 4 zuccinis - 3 to 4 oranges (peeled) - 1 pumpkin - 2 to 4 apples (pips taken out) - 2 to 4 bannanas (peeled) - 8 to 10 eggs (whole including shell) - flaxseed oil (approx 250mL) - kelp (approx 100g) What else you can put in: - bunch of silverbeet - turnip - squash - sweet potato - 2 to 4 pears - half to 1 pinapple - brussel sprouts - brocoli - cauliflower - bag of beans - Apple Cider Vinegar - Vitamin C - 1 to 2 green capsicums (stalk cut off & seeds out) - 1 to 2 red caspsicums (stalk cut off & seeds removed) Chop up then process up in blender/food processor so that things turn to slops. Put each blender batch into a big bucket. Usually leave the eggs & flaxseed oil for things that don't blend very well like the pumpkin and carrots. Ingredients should fill up a bucket. Mix bucket with big ladel till all mixed through then put into take away containers & freeze untill needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 If you feed a RAW/BARF diet then it should be approx 2% of your dogs ideal body weight per day.Chicken mince and frozen veggies is not a suitable diet at all. You should have approx 80% Raw meaty bones and 20% veggies, muscle meat, offal & dairy Google up and do some reading. The 2% is dependent on the dog. The percentages are debatable, and no scientific evidence exists to support your assertion that veggies and dairy are required in a dogs diet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 menacebear... I would also recommend swapping them to a meaty bones based type diet... NOT marrowbones.. they are too hard.. but all sorts of things like chicken carcasses, lamb flaps, pig heads, fish, turkey necks.... Do a search on DOL under BARF IF you would like to swap dry food... try Uncle Alber's/great barko http://www.lauckemills.com.au/dogfood1.html HERE The two brands you are feeding have gone downhill rapidly lately with changes in their recipe .. and we have changed over to the all australian one, which we use when no meat is available for our guys Not a premium food.. but is ok It does have a high fat content . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 50% meat, 50% bones uhhh thats not balanced. No wonder your shepherd was growing too fast sheesh bulk it out a bit. Dont go following those crackpot american diets Midol you'll ruin a good working dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puggy_puggy Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 The 2% is dependent on the dog.The percentages are debatable, and no scientific evidence exists to support your assertion that veggies and dairy are required in a dogs diet. Yes 2% is debatable but it's somewhere to start with an adult dog. If you see the dog is losing weight you up the percentage and if you see the dog is gaining weight you lower the percentage. Yes some say that veggies and dairy aren't required but some say they are. I personally feed them for good measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolietas Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 As a general rule of thumb - most people start with 2% of the dog's bodyweight - but this is adjustable depending on the dog's condition. Dogs are carnivores and as such have no nutritional requirements for either dairy or vegetation. Dogs are opportunistic scavengers and will eat these foods - but that doesn't mean that they need to. It is a personal decision whether to feed these foods - but there is no nutritional requirement to do so. Prey model feeders base the diet on 80% muscle meat, 10% bones & 10% offal as this is what a wolf would eat in their natural environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menacebear Posted December 8, 2008 Author Share Posted December 8, 2008 Thanks for the advice. I should have been more specific with the chicken mince. It is entire minced chicken carcasses. Everything except the feathers. I got if from porky's pet supplys in Cranbourne if that helps at all. Would i be better of swapping some dry food for chicken necks and frames? If i swap say 100g of dry food for 100g of chicken necks will they still get a balanced diet? I tried the uncle alders dry food but i found that even though 1 cup weighs around 200g i had to feed them the same amount in cups which ment they were getting double the food to maintain their current condition. If I can find a way to balance dry and raw we will swap to a super preimum dog food instead of the cheaper one. I like them to have plenty of energy, epsecially our flyball dogs. And my Am Staff x something big who is not yet 12 months old. Between all 8 dogs we are currently feeding out approx 2.4kg of dry food daily so i'm looking for a way to keep it cheap but make sure they are healthy. Even the bonnie has gone up to nearly $44 per bag and it is getting to expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cazxxz Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Can i do a clean swap? 100g dry for 100 raw or is the raw higher in fat? Raw food shouldn't be higher in fat, but it will certainly have a lot more water. This means that 100 g of dry is not the equivalent of 100 g raw. Changing my dog to a raw diet means that he eats at least four times what he was eating in terms of mass. I know a lot of DOLers feed a mix of raw and kibble, but I don't believe this is the healthiest option because kibble is digested more slowly than raw food so it can be tough on the digestive system. My dog didn't have any major problems when he was eating raw meaty bones plus kibble, though. There are plenty of things you can do to save money on a 100% raw diet. If you regularly get meat from one butcher, you might be able to negotiate very cheap (or even free!) bones and offal. Most green grocers have bags of lettuce leaves for pets too and they give them away (that's if you're considering BARF). With eight dogs, you'll need a big freezer if you want to feed raw! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 but I don't believe this is the healthiest option because kibble is digested more slowly than raw food so it can be tough on the digestive system. nahhh I think this is a little furfy actually. I dont see the problem especially since bones themselves which are part of a raw diet take a while to digest as well and dogs are not that delicate. As for lettuce leaves they are mainly water and rubbish as a big part of a dogs diet. Cheap feed? offcuts, carcasses, mince etc with a cook up of home brand/no name rice and veges. I can feed 3 dogs on $10 a week on this diet and none of them look bad, in fact their appetites are satisfied and they look pretty good. I add soem flax seed oil to the food as well for their coats if the meat is a bit lean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Nekh, go back and read my post again The sibes are fed a diet consisting of different % to the GSD. I've also been assured Montu isn't growing too fast, and is right on track. Vet was just odd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helen Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Puggypuggy, thanks for the great info. Will have to print that out I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 (edited) ETA Hey Midol is there anything about apple seeds? I cant remember I think a few are good and a lot are bad (I hate it when I cant find my references) or does he poop out the core whole ahh my spoilt brats wouldnt eat apple although the DDB brings me fallen grapefruits and looks at me pleadingly until I peel it and he sucks out the juice Edited December 9, 2008 by Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 I use a core taker outer The circle thing you slide in the middle and it cuts the core out. I didn't actually know apple seeds were bad but I don't like cores so figured they wouldn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Apple pips contains very small amounts of arsenic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Fox 001 Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 menacebear... I would also recommend swapping them to a meaty bones based type diet... NOT marrowbones.. they are too hard.. but all sorts of things like chicken carcasses, lamb flaps, pig heads, fish, turkey necks....Do a search on DOL under BARF IF you would like to swap dry food... try Uncle Alber's/great barko http://www.lauckemills.com.au/dogfood1.html HERE The two brands you are feeding have gone downhill rapidly lately with changes in their recipe .. and we have changed over to the all australian one, which we use when no meat is available for our guys Not a premium food.. but is ok It does have a high fat content . My bold bit - this is interesting as we have been feeding our GSD on Bonnie for about 5 years now and haven't noticed any difference lately in his condition. How long ago did they change the recipe? I am aware that it is not a premium kibble but our dog has done so well on it I won't be swapping unless he shows some changes for the worse. We tried everything with him to keep/put weight on until he was about 5 years old when we tried Bonnie Working Dog and he has never looked better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Apple pips contains very small amounts of arsenic. Yep, and they would need to be chewed to release it. Generally the seeds pass through whole so it's very unlikely the seeds would every cause a problem, unless of course you just fed seeds as the sole diet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 How long ago did they change the recipe? oh.. I can't remember.. but I do remember corresponding with both them and cobber, saying how disappointed we were. Bonnie had 2 big changes. one was being sold to purina the other was a scarcity of kangaroo meat due to drought conditions. This led to a change in ingredient placings and ingredients. Cobber also changed, due to not being able to source meat. They introduced more fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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