Just Midol Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 I think you will find that generally purely positive trainers with a rank HA dog, will prescribe medication.as according to *some* trainer's philosophy, if a dog is acting aggressively when you do not want it to (towards other people, not the handler), then the dog is anxious and/or because the handller is not being an adequate leader blah blah Also if one does not believe in rank, then one cannot diagnose it - therefore in a positive only world, a dog is more likey to be anxious than truely dominant; true dominant dogs are not born, so called dominant HA dogs are resorting to 'violence' because they are upset, fundamentally unhappy, eating disorder etc So how do you diagnose a "rank" dog and one that is fear aggressive? Aren't both emotive behaviours based on defense drive? Lord Midol, you seem to be the expert in drives...what do you think? I would have expected you to know the difference between fear & rank aggression. Fear = Scared. The name is pretty self explanatory. Rank = Dominance, again, the name was self explanatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wajoma's Aussies Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 http://caninesinaction.blogspot.com/ blog with vid and pics ... lots of attack type work ... is that what you're after ?? Laura Van Arendonk Baugh also writes regularly for Karen Pryors clicker website ... eg: http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 http://caninesinaction.blogspot.com/ blog with vid and pics ... lots of attack type work ... is that what you're after ?? Laura Van Arendonk Baugh also writes regularly for Karen Pryors clicker website ... eg: http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1974 Schuhtzhund, sport, I want real work. Plus, from what I can gather from her blog she hasn't titled her dog yet anyway, if anything she has failed with the bite work side of it. Attack work is a bit misleading as well, but I'm after people who have trained protection dogs and deployed them in the field, ie, not a sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wajoma's Aussies Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Schuhtzhund, sport, I want real work. Plus, from what I can gather from her blog she hasn't titled her dog yet anyway, if anything she has failed with the bite work side of it.Attack work is a bit misleading as well, but I'm after people who have trained protection dogs and deployed them in the field, ie, not a sport. Title = sport (right??) work = no titles :rofl: *shrug* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 would have expected you to know the difference between fear & rank aggression.Fear = Scared. The name is pretty self explanatory. Rank = Dominance, again, the name was self explanatory. I will re-word my question....how do you tell the difference between the two...ie the body language, etc etc. How does a dog show "rank" aggression compared to how a dog shows fear aggression? Just interested in your interpretation that's all Midol was asking about aggressive handlers. Not aggressive dogs. Sorry, didn't realise the thread was about aggressive handlers...should probably read the thread a bit better ....silly is me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I may be wrong but I read the title as Dogs showing aggression towards the Handler? If I am wrong and Midol means Human aggression, then its a big big topic with many dynamics and aspects. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 You could be right Tony! Sorry Kelpie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 Schuhtzhund, sport, I want real work. Plus, from what I can gather from her blog she hasn't titled her dog yet anyway, if anything she has failed with the bite work side of it.Attack work is a bit misleading as well, but I'm after people who have trained protection dogs and deployed them in the field, ie, not a sport. Title = sport (right??) work = no titles :rofl: *shrug* What? A title isn't work, my point was that she is competing in SCHUHTZHUND and in the sport, she hasn't even obtained a title so she is hardly a decent example of effective schuhtzhund training. Sorry for not making that clear, I made the assumption that you'd be able to deduce that yourself. would have expected you to know the difference between fear & rank aggression.Fear = Scared. The name is pretty self explanatory. Rank = Dominance, again, the name was self explanatory. I will re-word my question....how do you tell the difference between the two...ie the body language, etc etc. How does a dog show "rank" aggression compared to how a dog shows fear aggression? Just interested in your interpretation that's all I'm not sure what your point is since you don't believe in dominance theory. I'm not a behaviourist, and since you obviously don't believe rank aggression exists (as you disagree with dominance theory) then you really can't offer any insight into dealing with dominant/rank aggressive dogs in a positive way, can you? Tony, you're correct. It's about handler aggressive dogs, as in dogs who are aggressive towards the handlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Midol, you know what happens when you ASS.U.ME! Listen...and you must just learn something. Are you not going to answer my question, regardless of what I may (or you assume) believe?? Human aggression, then its a big big topic with many dynamics and aspects. Tony Fully agree Tony, but what an interesting debate it would make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) Midol, you know what happens when you ASS.U.ME!Listen...and you must just learn something. Say something then. Are you not going to answer my question, regardless of what I may (or you assume) believe?? No, I'm not. I didn't create this thread to have a discussion on training and I'm not going to partake in any discussion in it. I asked for some information and links, not for a discussion. If you'd like to discuss rank aggression with someone then go ahead, but it won't be me. I'm not assuming anything, perhaps you should go and re-read the thread you started a few months ago stating you no longer agree with dominance theory. Another option is I didn't understand you properly? But regardless, read my PM Edited February 6, 2009 by Just Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Quickasyoucan Midol your OP comes across as very aggressive, I know it was 4.15 am, but if you post your question in a less pugilistic way maybe you will get some answers.I don't have very strong views on anything but to me it felt like you had your fist in my face. Sounded like his dog just bit him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Midol you need to remember that this IS a discussion board, therefore no matter what you request, discussions will be had, even if you care for them or not. It's your tone that gets people's back up, not your point of difference. Regarding "dominance" theory, yes this was discussed at length in a previous thread. It's not so much that I don't believe in the dominance theory, it's just that I have a much better understanding about it these days than I did 10 years ago and it's not as "cut and dry" as many would like to believe it is. There are those who hold onto 19th century beliefs and those who move on from there. Each may still believe in same or similar concept but the level of understanding and the also the knowledge of variables is where the difference lies. We've come a long way from Konrad Most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) Can anyone give me the names of trainers who've succeded in protection work using positive methods? I only want a trainer who also has video proof of this being achieved. Here you go Midol, a seminar done by Bob Eden in 2007 using “purely positive” dog training methods to train police service dogs. You will not find a lot of information on purely positive police dog training as it is an ineffective method of training for police service dogs. Many Departments have found out the hard way after hiring Bob Eden to train police service dogs for them. Edited February 6, 2009 by Jeff Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Sounded like his dog just bit him. I can think of a positive training technique I'd apply to that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Thanks for the video Jeff. Clever dog at around 3:00 who is able to hold 2 sleeves in his mouth at once Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Can anyone give me the names of trainers who've succeded in protection work using positive methods? I only want a trainer who also has video proof of this being achieved. Here you go Midol, a seminar done by Bob Eden in 2007 using “purely positive” dog training methods to train police service dogs. You will not find a lot of information on purely positive police dog training as it is an ineffective method of training for police service dogs. Many Departments have found out the hard way after hiring Bob Eden to train police service dogs for them. Nice dogs though, nice music! They did remind me of my staffy playing tug though running around with sleeves in their mouths, I could probably get him to do that, not sure he'd make a great police dog tho he'd want to lick all the crims to death! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) Thanks for the video Jeff. Clever dog at around 3:00 who is able to hold 2 sleeves in his mouth at once I thought that at first too, but have a closer look ..... I could be wrong, but it didn't look as though the dog was holding the two sleeves. . If he wasn't, I'm not sure what the point of the extra sleeve was. Watching the GSD and some of the other dogs ..... they seemed to be doing the 'job' but didn't look to me as though they really 'meant' it. How strong would they be in the advent of receiving aversives (as I would expect they would with a real life crim). ??? ETA: Midol .... your OP was somewhat strong and demanding. I don't think you meant it that way, but 'tone' in the written word is often lost unless the right words are chosen. Edited February 6, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) Thanks for the video Jeff. Clever dog at around 3:00 who is able to hold 2 sleeves in his mouth at once I thought that at first too, but have a closer look ..... I could be wrong, but it didn't look as though the dog was holding the two sleeves. :rolleyes:. If he wasn't, I'm not sure what the point of the extra sleeve was. I think the first sleeve is attached to the dogs collar/harness. You can not and will not get a reliable police service dog using purely positive training methods. I do not want my police dog to view everything as a game, there needs to be a more serious consequence involved then what purely positive training methods allow. I need my dog to act when told to, not only when he believes the command / exercise is fun. I have said this before, a police dog trained with positive methods only and no aversives is a dog that I would not have on the end of my lead. Edit for clarity. Edited February 7, 2009 by Jeff Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Well said Jeff!!!You hit the nail on the head!!!!I really wonder about the purely positive mob!!!Nature provides us with great lessons.A Pack of dogs in the wild do not operate on a purely positive basis.So if the Dogs have woken up it do's not work when will the PPM? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Why would they attach the sleeve to the dog's collar or harness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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