What's Your View On This Ob Training Scenario?

[Paptacular!]

You need to decide whether this clubs methods of training are for you or not. You don't need us to tell you what we think about the trainer.

Threads like this make me not want to be a trainer!

I don't think their method of training is right for me and my dog.

I only made this thread to see if this was common behaviour by trainers for a beginner's class. I'm not intending to slag off the trainer or the club (no names have been mentioned).

I understand that there are various training methods out there, and I was just very uncomfortable with what I witnessed last night.

[huski]

I don't think there is anything wrong with Pappy asking about the trainer's methods, just to get some other opinions. Yes it is hard to gauge what really happened purely from her description but such is the case when you post on a discussion forum.

People ask about a variety of training methods all the time and if they didn't, how else are they supposed to learn?

[Kavik]

It does sound like a more traditional type of club.

Maybe it would be best to go to a club that uses more positive based training methods if you don't feel comfortable there. I have found you sometimes have to try a few before you find one you really like!

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I don't think their method of training is right for me and my dog.

I only made this thread to see if this was common behaviour by trainers for a beginner's class. I'm not intending to slag off the trainer or the club (no names have been mentioned).

It's not common for a beginner's class - you should expect better and don't feel bad about looking out for your dog's best interests. It is not soft, it actually requires a fair bit of courage for a newer person to walk away from a self-styled expert who is suggesting something the newer person feels is wrong for their dog. Good on you, it sounds like complete overkill for training a Pap from what you've described.

Also an instructor doing a demo with a class dog in a beginner's pet obedience class should be reasonably confident that they can quickly obtain the required behaviour with techniques that a 10 year old girl can use at home.

[JulesP]

Why this is dangerous is that we only have the view of the OP who has admitted that they are a novice. She might have got what happened totally wrong. People might PM her and ask her the name of this terrible club, which might actually not be terrible at all. Everyone seems to be accepting that some misdeed did happen. She also might not have seen what has happened at previous weeks. The nice doggie might have been biting and snarling prior. Or the trainer might just be heavy handed.

It is unfair to a trainer to judge them on a snapshot.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Why this is dangerous is that we only have the view of the OP who has admitted that they are a novice. She might have got what happened totally wrong. People might PM her and ask her the name of this terrible club, which might actually not be terrible at all. Everyone seems to be accepting that some misdeed did happen. She also might not have seen what has happened at previous weeks. The nice doggie might have been biting and snarling prior. Or the trainer might just be heavy handed.

If a dog has been biting it should be referred for private consult, not kept in the class. The trainer should not get into a battle of wills with it in front of a group of green pet people because the trainer would be modelling methods that the pet people should not be trying at home without supervision. Pet dog classes are to prevent serious problems and deal with minor problems that can be handled without interfering with the appropriate running of a class. They are not designed for dealing with serious problems or with techniques that require concentrated one-on-one analysis and tuition.

As long as the OP doesn't name the trainer in public and it can't be deduced from her public posting by a prospective student I don't see the problem. Is there only one correction based business/club in Darwin? If so, then I'll concede you have a point for those already in the know, but that also makes it hard for people who live in small centres to reality check the options available to them. Your casual web browser looking to attend a class is not going to put two and two together to ID the trainer tho'. And people on DOL PM information about doggie services they think are substandard all the time.

[Keshwar]

It was the second session of a beginner's class. Switching your dog on (sitting alongside the left leg) was taught last week and was meant to be homework, as was asking the dog to sit at the same position after completing an exercise.

Given the comment I've bolded, I would say that the instructor/trainer was being fairly heavy handed.

I certainly wouldn't be using a strong correction on a dog that probably doesn't know what is required of it. In my experience it takes longer than 2 weeks for the handlers to get their heads around what heeling is let alone getting them to give a clear indication of what they want their dogs to do.

Bear.

[JulesP]

We only have the OP view that it was a strong correction! Any correction on my boy border collie would have him on the ground weeing!

[Paptacular!]

The dog yelped several times while being corrected.

I understand that there is a huge difference between a firm correction on a bully versus a firm correction for a pap.

I wasn't looking to start a shitfight about it, or make any fledgling trainers feel uneasy about the way they train.

I just think that this trainer in particular was being a bit harsh on a dog who wasn't sure what he was expected to do.

[Tonymc]

Pappy is entitled to ask others opinions.

The situation is that nobody that has any sense corrects a dog when the exercise is not yet proofed!!!Be just as silly as me getting after a Horse when he do's not understand the movement I am asking for.

The Body language of the dog described tells a big story in itself.Yes Dogs have different thresholds, but any trainer worth anything would quickly see what type of dog they are dealing with and adjust corrections accordingly. Tony

[Staff'n'Toller]

It would be interesting to find out if this person actually is the club President or not, then speaking privately to the club President in the event that this trainer is a Vice etc.

I think it's wise to alert the most senior person that this is happening in a beginners class and are they aware?? The club either does or does not allow this and unfortunately if they do looks like you only have one option PL- walk if you are unhappy.

I was under the impression that Yeggy and ?Carlin's Mum? were training at a positive club but perhaps this was in Darwin City??

Mel.

[Paptacular!]

Staff n Toller, the positive training club is in a rural area, which is quite a way out for me to drive, especially at night.

I'll have to find out exactly what position the trainer holds within the club, to see who I should speak to about it.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Ah ok, well good luck with your investigations.

If you wanted to trial I'm sure you'd get heaps of help in training forum and a few dvd recommendations. :rolleyes:

[angelsun]

Check chains are not tools of torture if used correctly, the same can be said with pinch collars. In the wrong hands and used INCORRECTLY they are ineffective and cruel.

Now, a 'pop' done correctly WILL illicit a yelp usually as a response to the surprise of the sensation. The encouragement in voice should also be used, and in the case of a dog learning to walk to heel correctly, the handler SHOULD (in my opinion) also change directions quickly, making the dog realize that it MUST stay in position or it will have an unpleasant stimulation.

Now for those of you that work strictly with positive reinforcement training...you are in fact doing the same thing, without the collar correction. Reward is given when the dog is in the correct position, ignoring the dog, or using a stern 'wrong' is used when the dog is not. But, in both methods, the handler should be also using a positive voice command as well as a change of direction to enforce the fact that the dog MUST remain in the correct position or it simply does not get the reward.

In the case of positive reinforcement, the reward is often food, in the case of a corrective 'pop' the reward is simply praise and that the correction is not repeated.

I will tell you for years of training, that the corrective 'pop' is far more effective if done correctly than food rewards, however, everyone must be comfortable with their own methods of training.

Having trained from toy poodles (with major attitudes) to Great Danes, I will say that the dogs passing through my hands, all end up being able to walk correctly at heel within the first ten/fifteen minutes of the first class. I have seen many other methods of training that, yes, work...but will in fact take a lot longer and unless you are prepared to spend the rest of your time walking with a pocket of treats, you may find that a quick 'pop' done once or twice, and done CORRECTLY by someone that KNOWS what they are doing, is far more effective overall.

It is NOT designed to hurt, or break spirit or torment the animal in any way. If such a response occurs, chances are that the trainer is NOT doing the correction properly and is missing something in the whole training portion.

A dog should not 'slump' at a person's feet in dispair or out of desperation. It should not cringe, or crawl after a correction. When done correctly, most check chain work keeps tails wagging and spirits high. Anyone seeing a response NOT like this, needs to consider changing trainers.

(Just my opinion however, and it should be noted that I am NOT against positive reinforcement training, nor clicker/reshaping methods, but use a combination of everything I know for each dog as each dog is different and an individual) No method suits all dogs, regardless of what some will tell you. There are very soft dogs out there that need a very light hand..there are very hard headed dogs out there that would be uncontrollable using softer methods....and most dogs, need a good combination of both to succeed.

[Jigsaw]

To the OP have you thought about actually approaching the trainer who took the class and just asking him why he used this method on this particular dog? A polite non-critical inquiry as to why the dog responded in that way may give you more insight into the trainer and his own experience and methods of training so you could have a better idea of where they're coming from in teaching the class and you can decide if that's what you're after in a club or not.

[megan_]

Check chains are not cruel if used in the right way. At my training school you can use them if you want but only once you have taught a dog a command 100% - not before, because you are "punishing it" without it knowing what it is meant to do. Also, it shouldn't hurt.

IMO poor trainers like this give this tool a bad name. Some dogs don't respond to purely positive