WreckitWhippet Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 No puppy needs to be forced to the floor and left screaming until it submits in that position. I don't know how anyone could think that such man handling of a baby puppy can be in any way positive and to use the excuse of the pup or adult needing to be excamined by a vet is a cop out. My pups stand quietly on the vets table from the very first vacc and microchip, you can check teeth, eyes, ears, take temperature and check over every inch of them without them causing any kind of fuss. It's the same with the adults, this comes from having a firm but kind hand with them and daily hands on. We've done some things at the vets with my dogs that leave the vets amazed at their patience and acceptance, where normally they would be forced to sedate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsdog2 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 No puppy needs to be forced to the floor and left screaming until it submits in that position.I don't know how anyone could think that such man handling of a baby puppy can be in any way positive and to use the excuse of the pup or adult needing to be excamined by a vet is a cop out. My pups stand quietly on the vets table from the very first vacc and microchip, you can check teeth, eyes, ears, take temperature and check over every inch of them without them causing any kind of fuss. It's the same with the adults, this comes from having a firm but kind hand with them and daily hands on. We've done some things at the vets with my dogs that leave the vets amazed at their patience and acceptance, where normally they would be forced to sedate Thank you PPS - that's exactly what I've been trying say . Being four months old my pup has just received her Parvo vaccination (without any drama) The vet (6ft 4ins male) actually commented on her easy-going nature. As I said before, while we talked she went to sleep on the examination table . That's what I call a "positive" experience for my pup and it will also pay rewards next time we visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 I use both guiding accompanied by food rewards and luring in my puppy schools and have never left a puppy screaming on the floor. Do some puppies have tantrums? Yes. But these are the same pups whose owners have never handled them or held them, asked them to stand still etc. Simply holding them in a stand position has them wriggling, trying to mouth and making noise and this is worked through over a puppy school course. I have had 'unmanageable' pups start a 4 week puppy school and leave as some of the easiest to handle pups i have ever seen. Had these pups never been guided/ manually handled, i do believe their owners would have had problems handling them, let alone a vet, groomer etc. Guiding is NOT alpha rolling. Unfortunately some try to disguise alpha rolling as 'guiding' and do hide behind the 'if the vets have to..' etc. But not everyone who guides is this way. For the OP- everyone will have their suggestions as far as training goes. personally, i would always use food rewards for a puppy wihin a class if they like them/ are motivated by food rewards. ADT (as far as i know) has gone back to "the owner is the best thing" type motivation and i don't believe this is effective for many pet owners and dogs. However, given that they do allow food rewards- take some with you and ask for instruction on the best way to use them- when to give them etc. You can do luring and guiding as well- they are not mutually exclusive exercises and you don't have to choose only one way to teach the pup. if you are ever concerned by something an instructor/ trainer does- ask- a good trainer should be able to easily explain what is happening and why they are doing what they are doing. Great trainers clearly explain BEFORE they do such things so that owners know what to expect and the reasons behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobchic Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) Thank you Cosmolo!! I appreciate the opinons shared by all in regards to training. I believe it really is as personal as how you raise your own child. Many diffrent methods that should all (hopefully) come to the same point, a trained pooch!! I think Mr Fluffy is way too distracted to try the lure method atm. Im ok with that as he is fine to be held. Oh and I have a pic of some distruction he caused this morning Edited March 25, 2009 by bobchic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) Dogs aren't children. No one has given a single reason why a dog should be released when throwing a tanty when guided into a drop. The dog didn't like it, dog does what you say. It really is that simple. Edited March 25, 2009 by Just Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Rebanne it's the first and last time it will happen - my only excuse is that it happened so quickly I didn't have time to object. Been there and done that and learnt the lesson. No need indeed for any dog,let alone a 16 week old pup, to be treated in such a way, but some people try to make up for their lack of knowledge by using brute strength instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Dogs aren't children.No one has given a single reason why a dog should be released when throwing a tanty when guided into a drop. The dog didn't like it, dog does what you say. It really is that simple. But the dog, which was a pup, wasn't guided, it was grabbed by a stranger and dragged into a very submissive position, poor pup wouldn't have had any idea of what was expected of it so yes it screamed and struggled to get away from this attack. I suggest if someone many times your size suddenly grabbed you by your collar and forced you down to the ground you might seriously object too. And keep objecting until you either broke free or gave in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I actually agree with both sides if thats possible? I don't think any dogs should be handled roughly by a trainer, thrown or roughly put into a drop/ lying down position. But it upsets me to hear things like this being called guiding and anyone who physically guides a dog being labelled as a bully. There is a difference between a tantrum and fear response as well and this is a very important distinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) Dogs aren't children.No one has given a single reason why a dog should be released when throwing a tanty when guided into a drop. The dog didn't like it, dog does what you say. It really is that simple. But the dog, which was a pup, wasn't guided, it was grabbed by a stranger and dragged into a very submissive position, poor pup wouldn't have had any idea of what was expected of it so yes it screamed and struggled to get away from this attack. I suggest if someone many times your size suddenly grabbed you by your collar and forced you down to the ground you might seriously object too. And keep objecting until you either broke free or gave in. I've been to the ADT (I assume that is where she trains) and I've seen how they guide. They don't drag the dog into the psoition. They guide it, the dog struggles because he has never been guided into the position before. If he released, the dog has now learnt that throwing a tantrum gets them released. If ever done again, the behaviours intensity has increased. I actually agree with both sides if thats possible? I don't think any dogs should be handled roughly by a trainer, thrown or roughly put into a drop/ lying down position. But it upsets me to hear things like this being called guiding and anyone who physically guides a dog being labelled as a bully. There is a difference between a tantrum and fear response as well and this is a very important distinction. Same, but I doubt the dog was handled roughly. From how she speaks, she completely opposes guiding and was more angry that her dog was throwing a tantrum than the actual method. Throwing a tantrum is normal, and by itself, means nothing. If the trainer was really abusing her dog she would have said something. Edited March 25, 2009 by Just Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsdog2 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I've been to the ADT (I assume that is where she trains) and I've seen how they guide. They don't drag the dog into the psoition. They guide it, the dog struggles because he has never been guided into the position before.If he released, the dog has now learnt that throwing a tantrum gets them released. If ever done again, the behaviours intensity has increased. Same, but I doubt the dog was handled roughly. From how she speaks, she completely opposes guiding and was more angry that her dog was throwing a tantrum than the actual method. Throwing a tantrum is normal, and by itself, means nothing. If the trainer was really abusing her dog she would have said something. I give up It's very hard to reason with someone who makes so many assumptions (we all know what happens when you do that ). You have made a number of wrong assumptions about myself, my dog and where I train, but I doubt I'll ever convince you otherwise. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Ahh, I see where I misunderstood the ADT. Saw cosmo mention it and thought she was talking about you. Other than that, I think you're intentionally misleading people. If the guy was handling your dog roughly you would have pulled him up instantly, like any caring owner would do. You didn't, which means the dogs tantrum upset you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Pull him up instantly ? Trainer grabs pup, forces it to the ground .. I've seen that done before you can even get out of your chiar, let alone rescue the poor bloody pup from such treatment. The damage has already been done, long before the puppy chucks the tantrum , as you put it. When actually it's no tantrum at all, it's a natural response to being grabbed and pinned, the majority of puppies immediately begin to scream, having been roughly treated and pushed into a vulnerable position. Time to scrap the text books and get into the real world. Go and check out how a breeder raises happy puppies, that are accepting of the human hand and willing to learn without being subjected to brute force. Force is the cop out, for the person who's not willing to take the time to teach their puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsdog2 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Other than that, I think you're intentionally misleading people. There you go again - assuming One last try - I did step forward to stop him, and as I did so he released her. It's a privately run class and I was not going to make a scene in front of the rest of the class (they could see my reaction anyway). I have changed my training days as I don't agree with this particular persons training methods. PPS thanks for you input Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R00 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 No puppy needs to be forced to the floor and left screaming until it submits in that position.I don't know how anyone could think that such man handling of a baby puppy can be in any way positive and to use the excuse of the pup or adult needing to be excamined by a vet is a cop out. My pups stand quietly on the vets table from the very first vacc and microchip, you can check teeth, eyes, ears, take temperature and check over every inch of them without them causing any kind of fuss. It's the same with the adults, this comes from having a firm but kind hand with them and daily hands on. We've done some things at the vets with my dogs that leave the vets amazed at their patience and acceptance, where normally they would be forced to sedate As PPS says! Anyone forces one of my dogs to the floor, that last thing they need to worry about is my dogs reaction. Both of my dogs would stand patiently while at vets this is acheived by gentle handling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I don't believe being gentle and guiding are mutually exclusive. And unfortunately PPS- not everyone has pups that have been lovingly raised and handled- i get 15-16 week old pups who have never so much as been taught to be held in a stand or picked up. Again- there is a HUGE difference between a 'tantrum' and a fear response and a good trainer should understand this! Some pups/ dogs should not be guided straight away- but some should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Pull him up instantly ? Trainer grabs pup, forces it to the ground .. I've seen that done before you can even get out of your chiar, let alone rescue the poor bloody pup from such treatment. The damage has already been done, long before the puppy chucks the tantrum , as you put it. When actually it's no tantrum at all, it's a natural response to being grabbed and pinned, the majority of puppies immediately begin to scream, having been roughly treated and pushed into a vulnerable position. Time to scrap the text books and get into the real world. Go and check out how a breeder raises happy puppies, that are accepting of the human hand and willing to learn without being subjected to brute force. Force is the cop out, for the person who's not willing to take the time to teach their puppy. Yep I've seen it done when the owner is standing right next to the so called instructor and the dog. No time to react at all before their dog is a quivering mess on the ground. What the dog learns from that is to be suspicious of hands approaching them. Or to become the quivering mess on the ground whenever they are approached which is just as hard for another person be they vet, groomer, whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 So Midol I am still waiting for your answer to what you would do if someone, many times larger than you, came up to you speaking in a foreign language, asking something of you and when you don't comply you are grabbed by the collar and forced to the ground and held there until you say Uncle? Cosmolo, you mention 16 week old pups that have hardly been touched. Surely you don't grab them and throw them to the ground? Surely you start off with gentle touches, then maybe start by leaning over them, slightly enveloping them before progressing to a hug and so on and so on? My pups, bred or otherwise, have all chucked tanties when I wanted to clip their nails, at the beginning. I have held them gently until they realised I wasn't going to hurt them, put them down and started in 5 minutes again, never clipping their nails until they were settled. I have had a real tantrum thrower and yes I let her go as I wasn't going to be the cause of such distress. She learnt to trust me and became one of my best dogs ever. You don't have to force a dog to submit to you, there are other ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobchic Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 Did no one see the mess my puppy made?? I put pics up... Terrible time trying to clean it up while he played in it... And then this morning he had a few balls in his poo's... So will have to watch him to make sure they dont cause him harm... As far as holding dogs down to have them submit... I think there is a time and a place. Dog culture is very diffrent to humans and do need to be treated a diffrent way. Of course if you dont agree with how your puppy is being treated you have every right to stop whatever is happening and deal with the consequences, (which could be many diffrent things including good and bad) Anyway.. We really should talk more bout Mr Fluffy :P:P:P:P:P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Of course Rebanne- we build up to guiding, moving at whatever speed the dog can cope with and minimising any stress whenever possible. I never want to produce a fear response in a puppy- but i do believe showing owners how to work through tantrums is important. There are distinct differences and this is where its important that a trainer can read the dog in front of them, explain things clearly to an owner and knows exactly what they're doing and what results it will produce. Its not as simple as "all pups should deal with being guided no matter what" or "no pup should ever be guided no matter what". I don't hold pups down to 'submit'. Dominance and submission is not what i am dealing with when guiding pups and inexperienced dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvsdogs Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 the disclaimer is shown whenever he is approaching a aggressive or fearful dog, or when he is holding them down for domminance. I think its ok to improve my posture and the way I interact with my dog without consulting a professional I watched one last night where he held a bulldog down with his thumb under the jaw!! When you know what to do the results are amazing. Is the dog whisperer liked in these forums?? lol What about that english lady that does the dog thing? You mean Victoria Stilwell? I'd take her over CM any day. Here's a link to a video with Dr Ian Dunbar talking about dog friendly dog training Ha ha ha! We were recently filling bean bags & I spilt about a cup full. They were everywhere, can't imagine the whole bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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