Large Straining Dog (march Update)

[spottychick]

Hi there

I have been trying to help someone with their unruly 18 month old dog. She rescued it from a man when it was a puppy - he was shooting the pups but she grabbed one of them and took off with it. BUT she never trained it and it has spent most of it's life tied up in a dirty yard down the back of her property with ZERO stimulus and almost never being taken off the chain.

I have been trying for months to get her to work with the dog (his name is Buddy and he is some sort of mastiff X lab X something really big and strong). I even tried to work with him myself but unfortunately he accidentally crashed into my dally girl and broke her rib so now she doesn't trust him. I also gave up because she was doing nothing and I have 3 dogs and a life of my own so I couldn't spend all the time he needed to train him. After a few months he was also too big for me to handle alone because every time I got him he'd have been locked up for weeks so when I let him out he was totally hysterical. I am not very big and he pulled me right off my feet several times, just because he was so enthusiastic and excited to be off the chain.

I tried using a check chain on him and got her to walk him with that on, giving her instructions all the way about how to use it. We walked about 5 kilometres down to the local river with me and my dogs (who walked politely next to me off lead LOL). After a while Buddy walked reasonably well because the check chain was working a bit and he got a little tired out. The walk home was even better and she promised to keep doing it. But of course = sHe didn't. SO then I tried taking him out with the check chain again (note he's getting bigger all the time during all this) and he actually BROKE the choke chain. I told her to buy a stronger choke chain for him. Luckily one of my dogs had a martingale collar on and will walk next to me without any restraint so I took hers off and put it on him. He walked well all the way back home. But Buddy's owner didn't buy a check chain and she never took him out again.

ANYWAY. She is now talking about dumping him at the pound because she can't walk him and I fear for him if she does that because he's so uncontrollable. But he has a lovely nature - despite his terrible life atm. My aim is to get him to a point where she can control him and feel okay about keeping him - or at least have a dog that is rehomable.

SO I tried going around to her place today with a 'haltee' but he slipped out of it within a second. He has a short nose so it didn't really have a chance.

At the moment he has a "collar" which is a large piece of heavy guage chain held together by twisted wire which is stabbing into him !!! They said he keeps breaking all his collars in his efforts to escape off his chain.

I need to work out 2 things:

1. What sort of collar can they use when they chain him up that he can't break? (I am working towards getting him off the chain altogether but we have to get him under control first - hopefully I can help her do that) We live in a rural area and if he gets off the chain he immediately escapes the yard and chases sheep!!! (not to kill them - just for fun - but farmers round here SHOOT first and ask questions later)

2. What kind of collar can I get them to use to train him to walk on a lead.

3 Is there one collar that can do both?

Today I just attached two leads to his awful chain collar (after twisting the ends of the wire outwards so they weren't sticking into him). I got her to hold one and I held the other (it needs two people to hold him believe me!!!) then I got her to walk with me all round the back yard teaching her how to let him have a slack lead without losing control of him. And how to get him to stop pulling without pulling on the lead against him. Hopefully I showed her how 80% of the constant pulling and choking he does on a lead is caused by HER!!

But I really want to get him a collar that will help with training and not be so dangerous for him and make it easier for her to handle him.

Any help on the collar situation will be much appreciated. This is a priority for me because he really is a difficult bundle of hyperactive strength at the moment.

I will also be writing a separate topic on his training and asking for help but I need to provide a bit more detail on that first!

ETA: Oops I never did write a separate topic on training but I think it's being covered here. I might need help later once we've got him at least being exercised regularly and can then work with him on other training stuff.

Edited March 22, 2010 by spottychick

[Cosmolo]

Normal harness for tether (although i don't think the dog should be tethered but as you say, one step at a time)

Sensible harness (connects at front) AND martingale collar for training and walking. A well fitted martingale will help you to control the dogs head and neck with the harness helping you to re position the dogs shoulders gently but effectively when needed. Martinagle should have a sprenger chain in it- nothing else!

Ideally a trainer or behaviourist would be great too- the way a tool is used dramatically affects its effectiveness

[spottychick]

Thanks cosmolo! ANY help I can get is appreciated.

Do you know where to get a martingale collar with sprenger chain and the harness that connects at the front? Can you point me to pics of what you mean?

I tried to give them a harness for him a while ago but it didn't fit (!!! that surprised me as it did fit my large male dalmatian) so I've been trying to get them to buy a bigger one. If I have to I'll buy it for him - as long as I'm sure it will work.

There's no way they'll go with getting a trainer. For one thing we are a bit remote and secondly there's just no way they will go with bringing in a trainer - they'd think it was a waste of money/time. It's all I can do to get them to listen to me - but they do seem to be!!! This dog jumps on people and is unsafe around kids because of it. In fact even I have to get up against a tree or something to stop him leaping into me. Yet today I saw the brother holding a treat high up in the air and getting him to leap up for it. I couldn't help it - I ROARED at him "DON"T DO THAT FOR #@*^# SAKE!!! You're trying to get him to STOP jumping up NOT encourage it!!!"

I would never actually give these people a dog - they have had other dogs chained up in the back of their property and have been known to just shoot them when they get to be too much trouble. They seem to think dogs should just naturally learn how to behave all on their own while living locked away from everyone and everything. I don't understand it

Fortunately I do know how to use martingale collars and some other techniques having had a difficult dog or two in my life - but I will also be looking for help online etc (eg on here!!!) with anything I'm not sure of.

This town is a bit like that, people treat dogs SO badly. It's why I'm leaving soon Just can't stand it any longer. But I want to try and help this boy before I go coz I've known him since he was a cute little puppy and he really is a nice dog. And if I can help train him they will look after him. They're not deliberately cruel people, just a bit ignorant or something.

[Red Fox]

What type of collars have they been using on him? If they have been buying cheapo ones from the supermarket of course they are going to break, same with anything that has a clip in/easy release type closure.

You get what you pay for and the owners must be willing to purchase some decent collars if they want them to last.

A 2" wide high quality thick leather buckle collar should be pretty unbreakable, or a good quality harness as Cosmolo suggested and a nice strong martingale or check chain for walking (Herm Sprenger or similar quality). But neither will do any good if the owners refuse to walk the dog regularly and invest some time in teaching him to walk properly on a leash....

I know it sounds harsh, but maybe this dog would be better off being PTS. If he is spending all of his time on the chain, not being walked at all.... that's not a life IMO

[spottychick]

Oh I agree secretkei! I have actually said that to them and I think it's why they've started taking it a little more seriously. If the owner doesn't follow up on her own then I'll have to give up and her next move will probably be to surrender him. I can only do so much.

I'm just trying to give him the best chance I can.

Also, if he can get to a more sensible training level these people WILL take him with them to the river and roaming around the country with them in their ute etc so if I can get him at least walkable on a lead and to want to be with them so he comes when he calls, there is a good chance he will only be chained up overnight and will have a better life - OR that he will be nicely behaved if he's surrendered. His temperament is excellent. Their other dog - a JRT - constantly rushes at him snarling and barking and he just plays with her or ignores her. He rolls on his back for tummy rubs and licks everyone. Arent dogs amazing - no matter how awful they are treated they so often have this huge capacity for forgiveness and loving.

It's worth my trying but I'm inclined to the same view as yours if they don't change things - unfortunately.

I would guess they've been using cheap collars.

My check chain that he broke was reasonable quality but smallish guage (good enough for dalmatians tho) - I've not needed anything stronger with my dogs and in fact almost never used it (it was a relic from years ago). But I was a bit surprised that he broke it LOL

I use soft martingale collars on all my dogs but they rarely needed correction on a lead anymore anyway. If they do need to be restrained a bit I use the black dog head halter - it's superceded my old haltie which is why I was going to give it to Buddy - but it was useless on him LOL

[Red Fox]

Poor Buddy. And I know of a few dogs who are treated the same way too As you said, it's hard but you can't do everything for everyone.

I dont know... but from the tone of your post it sounds like these owners will not commit any time to training this dog. Do they live close to you? Could you possible spare 10-15 mins per day to leash train him? Possibly using one of your own collars?

Obviously not your responsibility at all, but if you are dead set on trying to save this dog you could probably have him walking nicely within a month with minimal (but regular) training

[spottychick]

Yes I'm happy to dedicate some time everyday to him! As long as I can work it so I don't get pulled over. That's my main concern coz he's done it in the past. I'm not sure he won't wriggle out of the BD halter - he flipped his whole body around to get the ordinary haltie off. It clearly totally freaked him out. It was also too long for his nose which is why he got it off so quickly.

And it really needed me and his owner to manage him today with a lead each. I have to say tho, by the time I left he WAS walking nicely around the back yard on a lead with only the occassional lunge when something distracted him. He has good potential IMO.

They live just down the road next door to the rec ground where I walk my dogs every day. I have to listen to him crying and barking from his isolated yard everytime I walk my dogs there. It's so sad -- he knows its me and my mob and he wants to join in. Twice when he was younger he got so desperate he threw himself over the fence and had I not quickly waded through brambles, blackberry etc and rescued him he would have hung himself to death. I convinced them to move his quarters AWAY from the freakin fence.

I have a larger martingale collar that belonged to my big dally boy who died a couple of weeks ago. I could use that but seeing what he did to the check chain I'm not convinced he wouldn't break it. LMAO Still - I think they have some sort of lifetime replacement guarantee so maybe I could risk it

I just found a site with the harness that was suggested - it's a kumalong "no-pull". Does anyone know if they're any good?

[mish13]

Would they surrender the dog to you (only temporarily) then you could work with him and find a much more suitable home for him. No dog deserves to live like this.

I am sending you a huge pat on the back for caring.

Edited December 26, 2009 by mish13

[Nekhbet]

why dont you use a prong - such a bi9g strong dog will just pull straight through harnesses especially if his pain threshold and excitement are through the roof

if they're such poor owners why is surrender such a bad option - suggest a rescue or someone who will put the time in if the poor thing just spends its life on a chain, which is by the way not legal.

[Cosmolo]

The sensible harnesses are the only ones i have tried and can therefore recommend- they don't allow the dog to pull straight through them like a normal harness and i have used them on a variety of dogs with success recently. I agree that prongs can be good for issues like whats being described- but i don't know if they are permitted where the OP is and i would not suggest one without proper instruction on its use.

I also agree that surrender may be a good option for the dog if the owners can't or won't put in some effort. However you might find that once you have shown them he can do it that they become alot more interested in working with the dog.

[spottychick]

Mish - I can't take him as he accidentally injured my female dally when he was younger and she just doesn't like him now. Otherwise yes, they would give him to me and I would have taken him in a heartbeat. But he is also still too wild - when she let him off the chain and brought him up to the house - I was sitting outside where there were several tables, benches, chairs etc - he upended the lot and leapt on everything, including me. I wouldn't let him near my dogs (off lead) while he's like this. I doubt he'd deliberately hurt them but he has no concept of personal space at all!!!

Thanks for the pat on the back

It's probably easier for me to try and train him while he's still with them.

Sadly, there isn't a rescue option here in Tassie. I've been searching for any rescue groups and they just don't seem to exist here (but I'm still looking). She will take him to the local RSPCA (which is the local pound and her only option) and having 'chatted' with the RSPCA recently I am pretty sure they will not rehome him.

I tried to get her to surrender him months ago when he was still a puppy and would have had a better chance. But I've asked the RSPCA about Buddy recently (without mentioning names) and they felt it was unlikely they would put him up for adoption.

nekhbet - It's appalling but almost this whole town does that - most dogs here are chained up 24 hours a day - I saw someone in this forum describe it as 'lawnaments'. It breaks my heart. And yes I've called the council/RSPCA more than once and no they didn't bother coming out or doing anything about it. I have taken to offering to walk some of them but often their owners get angry at me LOL. I do walk a local foxy sometimes and - of course - buddy when he was smaller.

I live in the wild wild east forest area of Tassie - there are things that go on here involving animals that would curl your toes. The Tassie RSPCA has recently been in the news re their lack of action and general slackness/apathy toward animal welfare in the state.

[mish13]

Mish - I can't take him as he accidentally injured my female dally when he was younger and she just doesn't like him now. Otherwise yes, they would give him to me and I would have taken him in a heartbeat. But he is also still too wild - when she let him off the chain and brought him up to the house - I was sitting outside where there were several tables, benches, chairs etc - he upended the lot and leapt on everything, including me. I wouldn't let him near my dogs (off lead) while he's like this. I doubt he'd deliberately hurt them but he has no concept of personal space at all!!!

Thanks for the pat on the back

It's probably easier for me to try and train him while he's still with them.

Sadly, there isn't a rescue option here in Tassie. I've been searching for any rescue groups and they just don't seem to exist here (but I'm still looking). She will take him to the local RSPCA (which is the local pound and her only option) and having 'chatted' with the RSPCA recently I am pretty sure they will not rehome him.

I tried to get her to surrender him months ago when he was still a puppy and would have had a better chance. But I've asked the RSPCA about Buddy recently (without mentioning names) and they felt it was unlikely they would put him up for adoption.

nekhbet - It's appalling but almost this whole town does that - most dogs here are chained up 24 hours a day - I saw someone in this forum describe it as 'lawnaments'. It breaks my heart. And yes I've called the council/RSPCA more than once and no they didn't bother coming out or doing anything about it. I have taken to offering to walk some of them but often their owners get angry at me LOL. I do walk a local foxy sometimes and - of course - buddy when he was smaller.

I live in the wild wild east forest area of Tassie - there are things that go on here involving animals that would curl your toes. The Tassie RSPCA has recently been in the news re their lack of action and general slackness/apathy toward animal welfare in the state.

I feel for you, that must be a hard to live in an area like that where you cant help them all. I understand why you cant take him home, at least you are helping him the best you can. Its a pity someone cant chain up all the humans for a week and see how they like it.

[spottychick]

cosmolo - you are right - the owner was very excited today that she was able to walk him a very short distance with no pulling at all. It will encourage her to keep trying but she will need pushing from me and I'm happy to do that.

I'm interested in the harness because today I was getting him to stop pulling by gently holding him round the waist/shoulder area and drawing him toward me. He loved it and would come with me and then keep walking next to me. Looks like the harness would do a similar thing with less bending etc and less back strain for me/his owner.

[Cosmolo]

I had to get mine through a contact of crazy beagle lady- pm her and see if she can help. Yes thats pretty much how the harness works once fitted correctly. There is another shelter in TAS though- i can't for the life of me remember the name of it but i met the lady who runs it at a recent seminar.

[Aidan]

There is another shelter in TAS though- i can't for the life of me remember the name of it but i met the lady who runs it at a recent seminar.

Canine Defence League "Lost Dog's Home", Scott Rd, Risdon Vale. This is the official "pound" in the Greater Hobart area. Worth giving them a call, he might pass the temperament test to be rehomed.

[spottychick]

I see the sensible harness is sold by a dog trainer site but there are no prices or an online shop set up. is there somewhere to buy them online?

[Cosmolo]

not that i could find- hence buying through crazy beagle lady

[spottychick]

Yes I know them and I've been talking to them too - they seem slightly better than the RSPCA and I suggested to my friend that if she MUST surrender him at least take him to Devonport (where the Tas Dogs HOme runs the pound) instead of the RSPCA in Launceston and he might stand a slightly better chance of surviving.

Thanks cosmolo! I'll try the crazy beagle lady

[cavNrott]

I see the sensible harness is sold by a dog trainer site but there are no prices or an online shop set up. is there somewhere to buy them online?

What does this dog weigh? Would he be bigger than a large Rottie. I have an Easy Walk harness in the members market place at the moment. This harness has the ring at the front. I did buy the sensible harness first (it's around here somewhere) but found the Easy Walk Harness far easier to put on the dog and it's a bit sturdier. It's large size. The dog I bought it for was a male Rottie of 49kg and I tried it on him to make sure it fitted ok but I never used it to walk him. I got him walking nicely on a martingale.

I also have two heavy gauge choke chains I'm happy to donate if this boy is as strong as he sounds. Also have a large Gentle Leader head collar and a size 4 Halti I would also be happy to donate. The Halti has been used once and the Gentle Leader is new.

[spottychick]

Wow cavnrott - that's really nice of you!! I'm guessing he'd be about the size (height) of a large rotty, perhaps less bulky than some rotties I've known tho - and would weigh around 40 + ks. But I'm not 100% sure. I'll ask his owner tomorrow if she knows more. He was so full on today it's hard to remember details LOL - he's one scary looking fella tho - until you realise he's a total sook.

The heavy guage choke/check chain would be exactly what I've been trying to get his owner to buy for him!! I was teaching the owner how to use my choke chain properly and it really did seem to be having a good effect on Buddy ...... till he broke it

I tried him with a Halti today (size 3) but he slipped it off his nose in less than a second. He also went fairly berserk when we put it on him, flipping himself violently over and backwards several times. LOL He was amazing! I was prepared to sit and wait until he wore himself out with that silliness but then he had the thing off his nose in no time anyway and then raced about looking pleased with himself. I just shook my head and laughed. Do you think a size 4 would be even easier to get off his nose or would it be better to use the larger size on him? He doesnt have a very long nose. It's not really flat either but definitely more blunt than a dalmatian. Rotties have short noses too dont they - come to think of it I wouldn't be surprised if this boy had rottie in him.....

The size three Halti only just fitted him around the neck so it was definitely the wrong size for him.

What is the difference between the halti and the gentle leader??? I'll go check online to see if it would be any better than the halti on him

Meanwhile I'll have a look at the members marketplace too.

Thanks so much for your help and kind offer.