New Championship Title For Neutered Dogs

[leopuppy04]

But could you not place the pet pup on limited register initially with an option to move them to main register at a later age - if you deemed them at 12 or 16 months or whatever you desired to be show quality but on provision of a desexing certificate.

yes this is correct.... those of us that do not desex early can still Limit Register.... and then later on once desexed and if the breeder

agrees the dog/bitch can be transferred to the Main Register as a neuter.

Yes you can do that - but just because the pups can't be registered with the canine council doesn't mean that they can't breed .

different matter all together though. I guess it's just that I would still prefer my 'pet register' pups to be de-sexed at 6mths, but in situations like yours N and with responsible owners, I'm more flexible... but first time dog owners I probably wouldn't be

[Keshwar]

I wonder how breeders will feel when a pup they have sold as a pet turns up in the show ring?

[Aziah]

I wonder how breeders will feel when a pup they have sold as a pet turns up in the show ring?

Well for most breeders that won't be an issue - pet puppies should be sold on Limited Registration so they won't get the chance to be shown as a neuter regardless.

[WreckitWhippet]

I wonder how breeders will feel when a pup they have sold as a pet turns up in the show ring?

Not going to happen to me, as they were all on limit.

But, any of the main registered failed show prospects that I've desexed and parted with over the years could well turn up, regardless of their faults.

Food for thought, if you are going to pet out a failed pup that you ran on, you'll need to down grade it to the limit register, to prevent the above from happening.

[Aziah]

I wonder how breeders will feel when a pup they have sold as a pet turns up in the show ring?

Not going to happen to me, as they were all on limit.

But, any of the main registered failed show prospects that I've desexed and parted with over the years could well turn up, regardless of their faults.

Food for thought, if you are going to pet out a failed pup that you ran on, you'll need to down grade it to the limit register, to prevent the above from happening.

I've done that once or twice and will certainly ensure it happens in the future :rolleyes:

[Faolmor]

I am one who probably won't be bringing out an already-titled champ, just to get a neuter title. I have absolutely nothing against the idea, and I think it is good to encourage people into the sport who have a neutered, main-register dog who may be good enough to show. But I doubt this is the way it will work. It'll just keep existing showies bringing out their retired dogs. Again, no real problem, and yes, good for numbers.

But I dunno. I just feel that putting a neuter title on an existing champ is learning towards the overkill department. If they're a champ, they're still a champ whether they're neutered or not.

[poodlefan]

I am one who probably won't be bringing out an already-titled champ, just to get a neuter title. I have absolutely nothing against the idea, and I think it is good to encourage people into the sport who have a neutered, main-register dog who may be good enough to show. But I doubt this is the way it will work. It'll just keep existing showies bringing out their retired dogs. Again, no real problem, and yes, good for numbers.

But I dunno. I just feel that putting a neuter title on an existing champ is learning towards the overkill department. If they're a champ, they're still a champ whether they're neutered or not.

Personally I think a dog with a conformation championship should be excluded from exhibition in the neuter classes for this reason.

[lappiemum]

I wonder how breeders will feel when a pup they have sold as a pet turns up in the show ring?

Actually, a lot of potential show dogs do go to pet homes - either because the breeder can't keep on everything they like from the litter, or because sometimes your pick doesn't turn out as well as its sibling 12 months later.

[WreckitWhippet]

I am one who probably won't be bringing out an already-titled champ, just to get a neuter title. I have absolutely nothing against the idea, and I think it is good to encourage people into the sport who have a neutered, main-register dog who may be good enough to show. But I doubt this is the way it will work. It'll just keep existing showies bringing out their retired dogs. Again, no real problem, and yes, good for numbers.

But I dunno. I just feel that putting a neuter title on an existing champ is learning towards the overkill department. If they're a champ, they're still a champ whether they're neutered or not.

Personally I think a dog with a conformation championship should be excluded from exhibition in the neuter classes for this reason.

I spoke to another this morning who is going to bring out her Res CC Speciality and consistent class winner. The bitch is also a multi BIG , class in show winner. There's going to be some pretty stiff competition out there, going by what the people I have talked to are going to bring back into the ring.

Her words were " why should they have a free ride to a title "

[poodlefan]

I spoke to another this morning who is going to bring out her Res CC Speciality and consistent class winner. The bitch is also a multi BIG , class in show winner. There's going to be some pretty stiff competition out there, going by what the people I have talked to are going to bring back into the ring.

Her words were " why should they have a free ride to a title "

And my thoughts are "what are you going to prove putting a N Ch on this dog" IF the idea is to encourage new blood into the ring, turning it into just another place existing exhibitors show their already titled dogs defeats the purpose.

I always hoped this would be a place where pet owners new to owning a pedigree dog could get a start exhibiting. If you're going to be up against very experienced handlers and GR Ch dogs (along with the fangs to the waist attitude displayed by some), they won't stay long.

People need to realise that the future of dog showing does NOT lie solely with Junior Handlers. There are plenty of adults out there who followed veterinary advice, desexed their dogs as pups and then discovered the show scene.

If this is the way the neuter classes will go then maybe we need to follow the Quarter Horse example and introduce "amateur handler" classes for people other than breeders to get a taste of the ring.

Edited February 19, 2010 by poodlefan

[capanash]

Out of interest just looked up costs:

Reprint Fee (errors, neutered reg) $14.50 *** assume this means i tell them that the dog is neutered and they tick a box on the pedigree then reprint

Transfer Main/Limited Register Member or Transfer between Registers $28.10

You don't HAVE to get a reprint. As long as it's changed in the database you can exhibit as a Neuter.

Just rang DogsVictoria... they said to change to a neuter I MUST send in the desexing certificate and there is no way around having the pedigree reprinted.

[-Megz-]

Out of interest just looked up costs:

Reprint Fee (errors, neutered reg) $14.50 *** assume this means i tell them that the dog is neutered and they tick a box on the pedigree then reprint

Transfer Main/Limited Register Member or Transfer between Registers $28.10

You don't HAVE to get a reprint. As long as it's changed in the database you can exhibit as a Neuter.

Just rang DogsVictoria... they said to change to a neuter I MUST send in the desexing certificate and there is no way around having the pedigree reprinted.

Then DogsVic are adding revenue raising to it. Our President has told me that it is optional to reprint as long as the change is reflected in the System then the dog can compete.

Once the title is achieved the reprint is covered in the cost of applying for the title and this reprint will have the Neutered status of the dog on it.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Well I am sure DogsVic are in for the quid.

[-Megz-]

I think that some people have put too much emphasis on the idea of this being to encourage newbies. This may be one of the ideas behind it but is most definitely not the entire situation.

Dogs are neutered for many many reasons and why should they be disadvantaged?? In an ideal world, for me, they would be allowed to compete for a real CC and BOB not just for a Neuter Title.

My Pug bitch LOVES to be shown, she was sick and we were forced to have her Neutered or she would not have survived, this dog does the BEST sad face when we leave for a show without her, this class and title offers her a second chance in the ring. Why does it matter that she has Grd Ch in front of her name?? If she is worthy, she should be allowed to compete and obtain the title.

I always thought that Member's Comps and Open shows were the stomping ground for Newbies, those with the "my shit don't stink" attitude tend to not go to these as they are "beneath" them, there is the opportunity to teach and guide handlers at these events. A Neuter Class at All Breeds and Specialty level wouldn't have this opportunity to learn.

[poodlefan]

I always thought that Member's Comps and Open shows were the stomping ground for Newbies, those with the "my shit don't stink" attitude tend to not go to these as they are "beneath" them, there is the opportunity to teach and guide handlers at these events. A Neuter Class at All Breeds and Specialty level wouldn't have this opportunity to learn.

No points = no payoff. That was the problem with neuter showing until now.

If people don't give a rats about getting new folk into the sport then things can continue on as usual. However, I'm tired of listening to people whine about declining numbers while simultaneously they do nothing to encourage new exhibitors.

Don't even get me started on breeders that won't sell to show homes and won't allow their dogs to be used at stud outside their kennels. That's really driving the sport towards extinction.

Edited February 19, 2010 by poodlefan

[-Megz-]

I always thought that Member's Comps and Open shows were the stomping ground for Newbies, those with the "my shit don't stink" attitude tend to not go to these as they are "beneath" them, there is the opportunity to teach and guide handlers at these events. A Neuter Class at All Breeds and Specialty level wouldn't have this opportunity to learn.

No points = no payoff. That was the problem with neuter showing until now.

If people don't give a rats about getting new folk into the sport then things can continue on as usual. However, I'm tired of listening to people whine about declining numbers while simultaneously they do nothing to encourage new exhibitors.

Don't even get me started on breeders that won't sell to show homes and won't allow their dogs to be used at stud outside their kennels. That's really driving the sport towards extinction.

I didn't say that they don't give a rats just that it wasn't the full picture.

A Newbie shouldn't be concerned about points from the start, learning the craft and their dog should be higher on the priorities from the start, if they have the confidence and the thirst for points from the get go then they need to also accept the fact that there will always be competition and people that have been there and done that, some before they were even born.

[Keshwar]

I wonder how breeders will feel when a pup they have sold as a pet turns up in the show ring?

Actually, a lot of potential show dogs do go to pet homes - either because the breeder can't keep on everything they like from the litter, or because sometimes your pick doesn't turn out as well as its sibling 12 months later.

That's true but what about the person who has a neutered pet who has faults that the breeder didn't want anywhere near a show ring?

I can bet that from now on all pet home dogs will be placed on the Limit register. But that won't help those that have already been sold and are still on the Main register.

I actually not opposed to this move but I think people need to look at all of the implications.

[Aziah]

I wonder how breeders will feel when a pup they have sold as a pet turns up in the show ring?

Actually, a lot of potential show dogs do go to pet homes - either because the breeder can't keep on everything they like from the litter, or because sometimes your pick doesn't turn out as well as its sibling 12 months later.

That's true but what about the person who has a neutered pet who has faults that the breeder didn't want anywhere near a show ring?

I can bet that from now on all pet home dogs will be placed on the Limit register. But that won't help those that have already been sold and are still on the Main register.

I actually not opposed to this move but I think people need to look at all of the implications.

It's only the breeders fault if their pet homed puppies start turning up in the Neuter classes, can't blame anyone else for not putting puppies on the Limited Register.

[poodlefan]

A Newbie shouldn't be concerned about points from the start, learning the craft and their dog should be higher on the priorities from the start, if they have the confidence and the thirst for points from the get go then they need to also accept the fact that there will always be competition and people that have been there and done that, some before they were even born.

And its the fact that some people have been around the sport since infancy that contributes to putting others off trying it. It's bloody hard sometimes to maintain your motivation when you are consistently outhandled by people to whom exhibiting a dog comes as naturally as breathing (and who make sure to let you know that) and who all seem to know each other. Thank God I'm bloody pigheaded and that I get support from other relative newcomers.

It's all very well to say that a Newbie shouldn't be worried about points but what's the motivation for the owner of a well bred pedigree dog to "give it a go"? If you're asking people to spend time and effort conditioning, grooming, training etc, there has to be a pay off. A "entry level" class is one very easy way to give it but that clearly won't be happening now.

In order to get people to try something you have to tick the "whats in it for me box". God knows with the closed shop attitudes some exhibitors display, it's amazing most newbs without support from within the sport continue on at all.

Try marketing anything that requires a lot of commitment and then ensuring that new participants are effectively shut out of the reward system. We don't ask newcomers to compete for any prizes with the top level competitors in many other sports.

People who've been on the inside for years either can't see the issue or don't give a damn. I had to laugh at the discusson on Ozhow the other day from long time exhibitors who consider themselves the "elder statesmen" of the sport complaining about the attitudes of newcomers . Knowing that some of them haven't lifted a finger in years to assist a newcomer makes that a bit hard to stomach.

Edited February 19, 2010 by poodlefan

[-Megz-]

I had a discussion about numbers and showing with an International judge a couple of weeks back.

In his words "showing is the rich man's game".

My understanding of his idea comes from the good old days when the Pedigree dog wasn't really the coveted thing. They had the dogs out in hunting packs etc, to own a Pedigree Dog and then to show it was not common place as it cost a lot of money.

To me, the success of dog showing, comes from the time and money some people are willing to sacrifice (let's face it, it's a sacrifice as not many will make the money back that they have spent) in the hobby. A newbie that gives up because the going gets tough has no place in the dog world, if they want someone there every step of the way to pat them on the back then they are very naive because at the end of the day this is a competition. The dog world can be vicious and nasty but it would be none existent if this was the majority of the dog world. Luckily it's very much the minority and if a person can't see that then they will give up and won't be back to show another day.

There have been a few times when I have wanted to give up showing, mostly when I was still in Child Handlers and mostly because the Adults running the event where manipulating rules and, to be blunt, cheating so that their child would win.

I started a thread recently for reminiscing, I don't think it's even half way to a second page and that makes me sad. My post didn't have all the people that I credit with getting me to where I am and yet most haven't even taken the time to think about their showing career thus far to thank those mentors and friends that have helped them get there.

I have and will continue to help newbies out that look a bit lost or just need to ask questions, but I refuse to baby them, I refuse to encourage a person that refuses to see the good side of showing. There is a few posters recently that give me this impression. They want it all handed to them on a silver platter and expect people to fall at their feet and tell them it's ok if they happen to lose. I have also seen people come and go from the show ring because they refuse to ask for help.

At the end of the day it's a competition, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. The established people in the dog world started somewhere, they were newbies once too. They have done the hard yards and don't need newbies bagging them because they beat them or because they've been at it longer. They also don't need to waste their time helping people that don't want help. As I said above most newbies I have seen lately expect to be treated like they are special, they refuse to ask questions and expect the people and knowledge to come to them and that's not how it works.

I've rambled and gone off on about 6 different tangents. Completely OT now as I haven't mentioned neuters once but I think it makes sense.