Dont Say No To Your Dog?

[Nic oh lah]

I've just bought home a new puppy and am starting as i intend to continue - if he's exhibiting an undesired behaviour (chewing on shoes or curtains or skirting boards) he gets a firm but definately notangry "uh-uh" and once he stops and looks at me he gets a fun toy to chew on instead, and gets an enthusiastic "Good Boy!" when he chews on the appropriate article.

We decided to sit and have a massive talk over dinner about exactly how we intend his training to go from the get-go the night before he arrived. When he's exhibiting desired behaviours he gets pats and praise and affirmation, and when he isn't he gets corrected immediately with swift firm "uh-uh" and is either given an appropriate outlet in play for his puppy energy, or given a simple command "sit, drop or come" and rewarded with praise. We've agreed we never yell at him and focus on positive reinforcement, but we need some form of correction. I think it's important to be able to correct my dog.

That said, Chase is 10wks old and the smartest little dude - he knows come, sit and drop and is continually tidying up his toys from the living room into his crate - he's a perfect wee pooch. Can't wait till he's a big boy though.

With Sophie she was a full grown GSD when she came to us and she'd never worn a collar or had any training beyond sit, and was very willful. With her we've utelised a check chain and she responds well to the short sharp noise and falls back into line. If I'd gone "purely positive" with her I could have been really really hurt by now - easy to say that "purely positive" is easy and the only way to go until you have an 18month old 34kg German Sheperd who has never been taught not to play bite her handler!

[Prydenjoy]

I've just bought home a new puppy and am starting as i intend to continue - if he's exhibiting an undesired behaviour (chewing on shoes or curtains or skirting boards) he gets a firm but definately notangry "uh-uh" and once he stops and looks at me he gets a fun toy to chew on instead, and gets an enthusiastic "Good Boy!" when he chews on the appropriate article.

Sounds positive to me, that's how I've trained Mango, also playing LOTS of tug with her and instilling a wonderful "Give" command, now if she picks up the wrong thing I just say "Give" and she brings it to me or just lets go of it and comes over to me while I find another, more appropriate, toy for her to chew on (very important when your floor is covered in baby toys!). The Uh-uh is not a correction, just a sign that she should look to me and I'll give her something even better

[SkySoaringMagpie]

The sock example was a good one. I have one dog who is a fast, heavy, pushy bugger when he runs with our smaller dogs. I used to yell NO and get cranky when he'd ignore me and continue to try and play dog soccer. Now I recall him instead and it works great because recalls are a game with us and he likes to play. I also manage his opportunities to run with the others so that he doesn't go out there fresh on a tired smaller dog, for example (I usually do the reverse). Works for me.

These discussions always seem to devolve into a religious argument but for me the key question is "what is the most effective method here bearing in mind the importance of the training outcome and the impact on the dog/s (now and in the future)". Almost always stopping and thinking gives you a different answer to yelling no.

[centitout]

It sounds like a Delta trainer you have been going to watch.

One of my puppy owners ,against my advice,took her pup to a delta class.He was a huge ,boisterous pup,very food driven.It was them that told her to walk him in a harness so he wouldnt pull-riiiiiight,thats why we use a harness on them trailing,so they pull us?????

He pulled her over several times in his harness,but she had to get up,and reward him for it?

Next they told her to take his food away EVERY meal,,no swapping for something better,sometimes a couple of times-end result was extreme food guarding by 14 weeks old.And dont get me started on the jumping up,which had to be politely ignored or rewarded when he sat-so then he would launch at you ,and sit for his reward.

He came back to me at 16 weeks old as she was desperate-i had him walking on a loose lead in 10 mins,because he only needed one good correction to learn the boundaries for that.I used TOT ,with feeding etc,and i told her to NEVER take a dogs food away again ever(unless she really needed too,but always have something better as his reward)

As far as the jumping,well he only did it once(boss grip on the muzzle and the ah ah).Once he learnt my boundaries,he settled amazingly fast,and i was able to incorporate more positive methods.

They were amazed at the difference after being at my place for 10 days-he was happy because he now knew what was acceptable,and what wasnt.

I also had,have 2 bloodhounds that never needed any correcting other than tone of voice/facial expression-they would be devastated if i said ah,ah to them,but then have 2 males that are more headstrong,they get a combination of training methods to suit their personalities.

Purely positive is not suitable for all breeds/individual dogs,and i think that where a good trainer is invaluable-knowing how to approach training for that dog.

I sometimes look at all the snotty little out of control kids you see running around,the results of only positive re-inforcement methods,and cant help but wonder if the same happens with our dogs sometimes.

[Mas1981]

It sounds like a Delta trainer you have been going to watch.

One of my puppy owners ,against my advice,took her pup to a delta class.He was a huge ,boisterous pup,very food driven.It was them that told her to walk him in a harness so he wouldnt pull-riiiiiight,thats why we use a harness on them trailing,so they pull us?????

He pulled her over several times in his harness,but she had to get up,and reward him for it?

Next they told her to take his food away EVERY meal,,no swapping for something better,sometimes a couple of times-end result was extreme food guarding by 14 weeks old.And dont get me started on the jumping up,which had to be politely ignored or rewarded when he sat-so then he would launch at you ,and sit for his reward.

He came back to me at 16 weeks old as she was desperate-i had him walking on a loose lead in 10 mins,because he only needed one good correction to learn the boundaries for that.I used TOT ,with feeding etc,and i told her to NEVER take a dogs food away again ever(unless she really needed too,but always have something better as his reward)

As far as the jumping,well he only did it once(boss grip on the muzzle and the ah ah).Once he learnt my boundaries,he settled amazingly fast,and i was able to incorporate more positive methods.

They were amazed at the difference after being at my place for 10 days-he was happy because he now knew what was acceptable,and what wasnt.

I also had,have 2 bloodhounds that never needed any correcting other than tone of voice/facial expression-they would be devastated if i said ah,ah to them,but then have 2 males that are more headstrong,they get a combination of training methods to suit their personalities.

Purely positive is not suitable for all breeds/individual dogs,and i think that where a good trainer is invaluable-knowing how to approach training for that dog.

I sometimes look at all the snotty little out of control kids you see running around,the results of only positive re-inforcement methods,and cant help but wonder if the same happens with our dogs sometimes.

I cant help but agree with you on the jumping issue, ignoring jumping dogs does not work in my opinion, my mum came to visit for 3 weeks when Mason was 4 months old and he was going through the jumping stage, my mum used to tell him off for jumping on her, by the time she left my pup didnt jump. A friends dog has never been told off for jumping and at a year old she still jumps on people more often than not.

[GoldenGirl85]

I cant help but agree with you on the jumping issue, ignoring jumping dogs does not work in my opinion, my mum came to visit for 3 weeks when Mason was 4 months old and he was going through the jumping stage, my mum used to tell him off for jumping on her, by the time she left my pup didnt jump. A friends dog has never been told off for jumping and at a year old she still jumps on people more often than not.

I agree, Lexi used to jump on me and I was worried she would knock my 3yo niece over when I came for a holiday, if she jumped on me Id push my knee out to nudge her down (so Im not coming down to her level) and tell her "no dont jump". I wasnt overly harsh on her because she has issues with submissive urinating and she doesnt need a lot of reinforcement so this was enough for her. Im glad to say she no longer jumps up on me and she didnt knock my niece over once

Edited April 4, 2010 by GoldenGirl85

[kayla1]

It sounds like a Delta trainer you have been going to watch.

The Delta trainer in this area won't deal with dogs that show any aggression (dog or human). She sends them to another (non-Delta) trainer.

ETA By 'this area' I mean my area.

Edited April 4, 2010 by kayla1

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

It sounds like a Delta trainer you have been going to watch.

The Delta trainer in this area won't deal with dogs that show any aggression (dog or human). She sends them to another (non-Delta) trainer.

yep it was a delta trainer i went to...never again.

[huski]

I always found the quickest way to stop jumping up is to ask for an alternative behaviour (i.e. a sit) and reward with attention/praise (not food) - a dog jumps up because they learn how that is how they get attention. I taught my dogs the best way to get attention was to sit. Seemed to work for me at least!

When it comes to obedience training my number one requirement is that I have a dog who really enjoys it and is enthusiastic about it. That's not to say I am purely positive or won't use corrections because I totally think they have their place, but I do think we shouldn't lose sight of how to motivate our dogs and that the number one reason we should do dog sports like obedience is so the dog can have a good time and enjoy it. I think back to how I used to train Daisy - I always used food, but I would also correct her when her nose went to the ground (which was pretty often) as per our instructor's instructions. Heelwork was pretty damn boring for her which was why she was putting her nose to the ground in the first place! Once I learnt how to motivate her properly, it became far easier to keep her nose off the ground, because training with me was far more interesting.

[huski]

I am going back to watch the progress of this class as i am quite interested in how long and it takes dogs to be trained this way.

Depends on the "team", as with any method of dog training. I think you're in the wrong class, if you're not open minded about it then you might as well go somewhere else.

In answer to your question (statement, whatever), it doesn't take long at all if you know what you're doing. I have had everyone at our club coming up to me simply amazed by the progress Berri made in SUCH a short period of time, I think I'd been going for 2 months when half a dozen people asked me if I was trailing, and why not. These are people who had been working their dogs with check chains for pretty much forever and Berri had over taken them.

I went to a positive workshop on the weekend and the people there had so many "wow" moments as they got their dogs to do things they had never been able to do before.

I don't (well, rarely - I am human after all!) say no to my dogs, we have a great relationship. They have to work for everything they want and need, food, getting in and out of the house/car, going for walks, play etc. I establish my authority over them in a way that doesn't involve saying "no", and they respect me for that.

Berri sounds pretty amazing Jeanne! You should post some videos of him in the youtube or training talk thread

[Kavik]

It sounds like a Delta trainer you have been going to watch.

The Delta trainer in this area won't deal with dogs that show any aggression (dog or human). She sends them to another (non-Delta) trainer.

ETA By 'this area' I mean my area.

I was talking to one of the people I do agility with, who is doing the Delta instructor's course. They are actually told not to deal with dogs that have any behavioural problems, but to refer them to a veterinary behaviourist. They are not taught how to deal with problem dogs at all. The lady I talked to was frustrated at this.

[dark angel]

There are no perfect training methods and it's like the arguement over which is better, raw or kibble for a dog.....no one has to prove their methods, because it's not a contest. In the end, whatever method or combination of methods, wins a well behaved dog. The arguement is simply that people should be permitted to choose what they beleive is correct for them and their dog to attain that goal.

Amen to that!! Honestly, I don't see how anyone could have a problem with people who choose not to be hard on their dog! You CAN get results with either method, but NOT every pet owner is a good trainer, REGARDLESS of what method they use. So why jump on the band wagon laughing at the method, when really it is the trainer that is struggling? Some dogs trained positively will go through trials keeping their 200 points, if the method didn't work how would this be possible?

I don't know how Berri would have actually gone in a trial, but many of the triallers at the club were telling me I should have entered him because "he would have done well". Honestly the thought hadn't crossed my mind. He had previously passed the puppy class a year earlier, but hadn't had any training in between (I was busy having a baby and unfortunately didn't spend as much time with him during that time as I would have liked, I never even got a baby sitter until I took him back to training!).

As for the class being chaos, you can get classes using all methods that are chaos, peoples timing is not good, they might not be following directions properly, their dogs are highly distracted (and yes, even dogs on check chains can get distracted!).

I have good reason to only train using positives, I personally don't agree with check chains but that's my opinion, you don't see me jumping on my band wagon and saying how the classes are laughable (there's nothing funny about it) and the the dogs are out of control (which many of them are) - And it's all because of the method! I grin and bear it. But if you have options (I don't), and it really bothers you THAT much that you have to come here to get it all off your chest, then the solution is easy DON'T GO! You say you want to see other peoples methods, but you clearly aren't being open minded. Rather than focusing on the worst stories (which you get in any class, regardless of method) why not (if you really have an open mind) find the best dogs, look at the relationship they have with the owner, how focused they are and dedicated. If you're not seeing this in any of the dogs I'm sorry, you're in with a bunch of lemons! Or you're being too critical... Also, not every training group is training for trialling, many are simply to provide a better connection with the dog and aim for a good companionship. Teaching how to communicate with the dogs etc. If all the dogs are pulling on the lead when they get there perhaps the owners don't actually mind? I used to let Berri pull me into training every week, because he was having fun, and that was the only thing I care about. Now he knows that if he wants to get anywhere the golden ticket is to have a loose leash, because if that leash isn't loose we ain't moving!

Why have you no options?

Laughable yes ..when i see trainers treating other peoples dogs for the wrong things.

There were approximately 30 dogs divided into three classes .I WAS LOOKING for a dog that had some form of obedience.Thats what i went there for to see how they train and perform.

We dont train for trialling either but by geez our dogs are heeling in 2 lessons normally one.NO not with the "focus" as they do in trialling but walking calmly by your side.

You say maybe the owners dont mind if they pull.They must be the only ones in the world that havent yet written on this site asking" how do i stop my dog pulling"

Why shoud a dog pull at anytime ? it shouldnt...

And again i will be going back just to see the progress Im not as close minded as people may think.

It doesnt bother me that much that i have to vent it here.I like having discussions, i like to hear what other people think.

And where a valid point of view is given i aknowledge it eg ernys post..

[dark angel]

I cant help but agree with you on the jumping issue, ignoring jumping dogs does not work in my opinion, my mum came to visit for 3 weeks when Mason was 4 months old and he was going through the jumping stage, my mum used to tell him off for jumping on her, by the time she left my pup didnt jump. A friends dog has never been told off for jumping and at a year old she still jumps on people more often than not.

I agree, Lexi used to jump on me and I was worried she would knock my 3yo niece over when I came for a holiday, if she jumped on me Id push my knee out to nudge her down (so Im not coming down to her level) and tell her "no dont jump". I wasnt overly harsh on her because she has issues with submissive urinating and she doesnt need a lot of reinforcement so this was enough for her. Im glad to say she no longer jumps up on me and she didnt knock my niece over once

Best thing about jumping dogs is that most do it frequently so the knee works very well and is a very quick way to stop it.And if you can pre empt the jump to a degree the knee can come up before the dog lands on you.So in reality the dog is hitting your knee rather than your kneeing your dog.It doesnt take long for them to realize..

They soon sit down to wait for their pat

[Zug Zug]

Saying 'no' and knee in the ribs did not work for my dog when she was younger and a jumping fanatic. She thought the knee was fun. To make it un-fun I would have had to hurt her. Not cool

What did work was withdrawing my attention (turning my back, leaving the room, walking back inside). It was attention she was after, and that really hit the nail on the head. Also, teaching her other ways to get attention (she trials in obedience now and loves it).

Mind you, she really just swapped jumping on us for jumping up and down in front of us. She is very exuberant. She will always be a 'jump for joy' dog. We don't mind that - in fact we've all come to really love it.

[huski]

When a distraction is greater than the reward, that's when purely positive methods fail in my experience. The dog has to learn that there are negative consequences to an action of disobedience greater than withholding a treat. Seven breaks from a stay doesn't sound very inspiring

Well, that depends on your definition of purely positive training. I personally hate the term 'purely positive' as I think purely positive training is impossible.

I know dogs who are extremely reliable in very high levels of distraction through methods like drive training and without being given any serious corrections for "disobedience". When a dog is in drive they are switched off to the distractions around them. Something that may be distracting to them when they aren't in drive is non existent when they are switched on and working in drive. You can also build a dog's value or drive for a reward over time. What could be more of a consequence to a driven dog than withdrawal of their drive reward?

If the level of distraction is too great for your dog, why does that automatically mean the dog requires a correction? Isn't that a reflection on your lack of proofing or inability to motivate your dog?

Edited April 4, 2010 by huski

[angelsun]

I was talking to one of the people I do agility with, who is doing the Delta instructor's course. They are actually told not to deal with dogs that have any behavioural problems, but to refer them to a veterinary behaviourist. They are not taught how to deal with problem dogs at all. The lady I talked to was frustrated at this.

This holds BIG concerns for me for a number of reasons...firstly....these trainers present themselves as people that can take any dog with any problem and fix it using only positive/food methods. The website also presents these people as 'some of the highest qualified' in the country and proclaim their Certification Level 4 as the be all, end all.

Now if this is the actual case and this qualification is what they present it to be, then having a problem dog, would not present a problem....(pardon the play on words!)

It strikes me very odd that a group of people, that loudly proclaim their method of instruction IS THE ONLY CORRECT WAY, and yes, they are indeed that vocal, will pass off or ignore dogs that are disruptive or difficult or come with problems.

The next concern is this, and this is happening in my region.....These instructors have falsely told people that correction collars are not allowed (against club rules) on the premises of the training/show grounds.....therefore with that statement, and a dog show coming up in a week, no one would then be permitted to show their dog on a choke chain of any sort, in fact martingales are also considered incorrect, but head halters and body harnesses are acceptable. Now saying this, we have a large group of people that have been turned away through one reason or another from this group of instructors. They have been told that their dogs are not suitable, they as owners are to blame, or a combination of the above. They have an unruly dog with no hope of getting the instruction and support they need to turn that dog into a good member of their neighbourhood. This is the dog club...the Canine Club....the place where most would turn to with a dog, looking for help, and yet, because the intructors with their Certification 4 diplomas will not deal with dogs with problems and issues, be it dog to dog or dog to human, these dogs and their owners are left hanging and risk the worst fate because they are being ignored.

This is where I came onto the scene, with a lot of years of practical training behind me, and when I say that, I mean training that makes a better social pet, AND can be used for trialling IF the team wishes it. I do not just do "pet" obedience...to me, obedience is obedience, full stop....I will polish you and your dog should you wish to trial, but to me, the same rules apply regardless of what you are going to do with your dog.

I had a new student today....this makes in the past three weeks of getting together to train, the numbers going from a start of 4 dogs, to a group of about 12. All these dogs come to me with some issue or another....all are different little personalities to sort out and all are being taught the same disciplines, albeit with slightly different methods depending on the dog and what it needs.

In less than three weeks, I've taken a dog with lead aggression issues to being able to be within a couple metres of another dog and most times, not reacting. This same dog that pulled her mom around, today did a stellar heeling routine full of tight circles and direction changes and really wanted to work....by the way..no food involved.

I have a couple Sibes that because of their Delta training, would simply not even sit without food in front of them...they both now work well with praise only and are corrected only slightly for slow responses. And then there is my over the top GSP who's energy levels make me tired just watching her.....she now settles into work and heeling and is far less flakey...she is a play machine....high praise makes her worse....so we know now to keep the praise quiet and sporatic to make her work her best.

All my class did exceptional today as they learned a lot of new things in both obedience and simple behaviour training. All but one came with a correction collar, and all dogs are learning to respond to the rattle that a properly fitted and used choke chain will do. Tails wagging, and people smiling because they are learning. But I will also mention that I'm in the black books with some, specifically the instructors that also train in the same location, simply because I buck the system.....(in their opinion) That I do not have a Certification 4 diploma issued by someone (I really don't know who issues them) to tell me that I am capable of training someones dog. And yet those same people with that slip of paper, won't take the dogs I have in my class....why.....simple answer...because they are NOT easy to work with, and these particular trainers and their methods do not want to show that they do not succeed, or it simplyl undermines what they are pushing out there as propoganda stating that their method is the only "HUMANE" method to use, and anything less is archaic.....

Do I say no to my dog? Damn straight I do..I don't couch it by saying I use 'whoops' or 'wrong' or 'uh oh' etc....call it what you want, it's a negative tone, it's the same as saying NO....but perhaps the word NO is concidered politically incorrect now? That negative tone replaces the mother dogs low grumble when a pup is naughty, and the quick pop on the correction collar (is that politically correct enough instead of choke chain?) is the neck grip and hold that mommy dog does when needed. Pups know the rules....it's very clear to them and if we watch baby pups and their moms we see them being taught to respect.....then suddenly we humans take over and that well behaved pup that doesn't nip or bite, turns into the hound from hell.....why? Because we stopped being 'mommy dog' and began to rationalize with the pup....

I do say please and thank you to my dogs when they do as I ask or when I am asking them for a behaviour or action....but I do not reason with them. They love me anyway, and I"m pretty sure won't grow up and write a novel about how horrible I was to them as they grew up. (Remember "Mommy Dearest"?)

[huski]

I don't see why there is a problem or stigma associated with using food in training I will always use a food reward for Daisy because I train her in food drive. There's no way on the planet you could get the same level of work out of her simply using praise. Could I still get her to sit or comply to other commands without food? Of course, I don't use food for day to day stuff and I still expect compliance when we aren't training. I don't however expect the same level of 110% focus, bouncing off the walls to comply with my command, adrenaline pumping, fast, sharp enthusiasm I do when we are training.

I think there is a big difference between food exchange (shoveling food into the dog's mouth) and food drive (getting a dog to really work for the reward). You can really see the difference in a dog who is basically just eating the treat because it was presented to them and a dog who would walk over hot coals to get a tiny piece of food.

I don't mean to come across as someone whose anti corrections or punishment because I definitely am not, but I'd hate for anyone to get the impression that if you use food in training you are bribing your dog or you're a weak trainer or permissive.

[Cosmolo]

The biggest training problems come through inflexible extremists- whether they be 'food only' or corrections only. Flexibility, an ability to assess the dog in front of you and choose the technique to suit is vital in any trainer.

The issue is, people who use 'corrections only' think food is a bribe and people who use 'food only' think every correction is abuse. neither of these things are correct and there is a whole lot of beautiful grey area in the middle of the extremes!

[huski]

The biggest training problems come through inflexible extremists- whether they be 'food only' or corrections only. Flexibility, an ability to assess the dog in front of you and choose the technique to suit is vital in any trainer.

The issue is, people who use 'corrections only' think food is a bribe and people who use 'food only' think every correction is abuse. neither of these things are correct and there is a whole lot of beautiful grey area in the middle of the extremes!

Totally agree with you there, Cos! I know some people don't like the term balance but I think extremity either way is detrimental.

[Erny]

Cosmolo - that was beautifully put and I agree with you whole-heartedly.

Unfortunately things we do around our dogs is becoming a "ban this and ban that". Those whom push for those decisions and the decision makers themselves don't seem to get that. Having an open mind means that we can approach every dog as an individual more freely and potentially more fairly.