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klw

Pit Bull/amstaff Difference

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klw   

hello,could someone please tell me the differences between these 2 breeds? i think theyre the same dog,i spoke to an all breeds judge and he said they are the same dog,can someone maybe an amstaff breeder tell me if theres a difference and why amstaffs are not banned but pitbulls are?

cheers

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geo   
hello,could someone please tell me the differences between these 2 breeds? i think theyre the same dog,i spoke to an all breeds judge and he said they are the same dog,can someone maybe an amstaff breeder tell me if theres a difference and why amstaffs are not banned but pitbulls are?

cheers

There are plenty of threads already on this forum just do a quick search. Then you'll have to make your own mind up based on what you've learned about them as breeds and how similar and different they are all at the same time.

It'll be better if you do some searching on the internet, there's lots of info about it. It's very interesting.

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Amstaffs are not restricted , because bascially the Amstaff is an ANKC recognised breed and the canine councils have done the deals to keep them safe, providing they have papers issued by the ANKC's state bodies or if they are imported, they have papers from a body that the ANKC recognises.

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rep628   
hello,could someone please tell me the differences between these 2 breeds? i think theyre the same dog,i spoke to an all breeds judge and he said they are the same dog,can someone maybe an amstaff breeder tell me if theres a difference and why amstaffs are not banned but pitbulls are?

cheers

Depends on what you want to know about "differences"? Do you want to know which one(s) is legal, which one isn't? About differences in temperaments, or physically?

I think the bottom line is that it depends on what country you're from as far as the "differences" of the breed. In Australia, Amstaffs and APBT mustMustMUST (OMG) MUUUUUST be different dogs. In North America - it really doesn't matter (And look, I was involved in the Amstaff show world back in Canada - so I do have an idea) the reason for this? Well, from what I can tell, when the poop started to hit the fan a couple of things happened - and please, anyone who had their thumb on the pulse of it all at the time is free to correct me.

1) In Australia there is no large scale Kennel Club (like the UKC, or the ADBA) that could stand up for the right of APBT here in Aussieland. And I daresay the N. American based UKC and ADBA didn't support their registered breeders down here in lobbying against the laws,

2) In the ANKC, some Amstaff and Eng Staffy groups/breeders made a point to segregate them from the rest of the bully breed world. Why? Well, it's easier to pretend that you're not part of "those people" than to actually look at the bigger picture and realize what effects one affects us all. ReadySetGo said it best "deals were made". A great example of this is the most recent garbage that came from news.com.au/the Sydney Herald in an article titled "Dog Attacks on Children on the Rise".. Now the article stated the fact that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was NSW's #1 biting dog. And someone (I think he even title himself as a Staffy Bull Breeder) quipped on the comments that "well those stats are skewed because everyone who owns a Bully breed calls them "Staffys" and that a lot of those people who own "Staffys" are just registering them as that to keep them safe from the laws." And it's quite likely true, but that's the hole the ANKC people have dug for themselves - they've turned the internationally renowned Nanny Dog into a statistical nightmare, and that's such a shame.

Deals continue to this day - when Kylie Chivers challenged the GCCC for her dog and the Supreme Court declared Amstaffs = APBT, APBT = Amstaff. A lot of Amstaff people started to panic, next thing you know there's an announcement at the Brisbane Royal Show (I think, I probably have the locale wrong) that "‘(3) Also, the breed American pit bull terrier does not include a dog of the breed American Staffordshire terrier.’" (Part 3 Amendment of Animal Management (Cats and Dogs) Act 2008, Pgs 12 and 13) - It goes to show the deals are still on - to anyone from the outside, the fact that this announcement was made AT an ANKC dog show... well, you get the idea. It just smacks of the back door dealings happening.

Oooook, so now onto the physical differences. I think there's a heap of good threads in here but I think one internet pages sums it up quite nicely. From www.pbrc.net

" ”Pit bull” is NOT a breed. It's a generic term often used to describe all dogs with similar traits and characteristics known to the public as "pit bulls." When we use the term “pit bull” here, it should be understood to encompass American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers.

Remember: in most cases, we usually know little about the background of rescue dogs. Some may be gamebred APBTs (from fighting lines), some may be registered show dogs, some may be American Staffordshire Terriers, some may look like APBTs but might be mixed with other breeds, etc. Since there is no way to know for sure unless you have the pedigree of the dog, we recommend following the advice offered by PBRC for any pit-bull-type dog (most of our guidelines are, at any rate, simply basic rules of dog ownership). See PBRC's FAQ for more information. " http://www.pbrc.net/breedinfo.html

And here's a link to FAQ - which does an absolutely brilliant job of describing how the lines are muddied in N. America (which ultimately has muddied the lines down here). And look, the ANKC and the AKC are sister organizations/kennel body's. So keep that in mind - http://www.pbrc.net/faq.html

Still with me? So as pbrc.net pointed out, some dogs are dual registered - here's an example, of a kennel with dogs I know personally:

http://www.yorkkennels.com/baronandfaithsale.html

So, whoever took those dogs on, would be able to import them legally into Australia, breed with them, show them and legally sell puppies to dance around an ANKC show ring - unless of course they produced a chocolate/red-nosed pup, because the ANKC doesn't allow chocolate or red nosed Amstaffs into the ring - the N. American AKC does it's just harder to Ch. title those dogs.. And then take the dogs back home and show them as APBT. Now, this doesn't mean ALL Amstaffs are registered ABPT, and it sure doesn't mean that ALL APBT's are registered Amstaffs. But as I was explaining to someone at a recent Delta Society workshop "It just depends on the lines. Some lines are more like brother and sister, others are more like cousins"... ultimately though, they are the same TYPE of dog and I'll go into to this more later. The bottom line - in the 1800 & 1900's they were the exact same dog, then kennel clubs got a hold of them... and we've molded them to suit our purposes, Amstaff groups didn't want dogs with more than 80% white? Well, they either went back to be registered as APBT or the Bull Terrier people got a hold of them, changed the shape of their heads and therefore created a new "breed". Weighed less than 15 kgs, and was a short little chunky butt (Even if his parents were pit fighters, the dog just happened to be a litter runt)? He'll fit into a SBT standard. And take note, in the 1970's the AKC re-opened its stud books to APBT's to widen up the gene pool... and yes, 30+ years (and god knows how many generations in that time) between then and now is a long time, but not that long when you look at the looooong and incredible history of these types of dogs. Heck, even Boston Terriers come from the same family... The immortal Stubby has been claimed by all of those breed fancier groups. Scroll down to halfway on the PBRC Breed Info page link I sent you (dog in goggles), what would most of us call that dog??? Hmmmm? It would be an interesting poll!

And up until earlier this year (or perhaps 2009?), you could proverbially walk your AKC pedigreed Amstaff into an ADBA/UKC office and be able to register him as an APBT. It was just the way it worked in N. America

Now you see where the lines are muddied. And it's SUCH a hotly contested debate. And honestly, I know Amstaff people in Canada that would swear to you until they were blue in the face that Amstaffs are NOT APBT - and they have the pedigree to back it up... unless of course one of their puppy buyers took the dog to an ADBA office and then registered the dog as an APBT... and I know APBT breeders that want "nothing to do with those watered-down Fabio's". But frankly, I don't think it really matters all that much. If my pedigreed retired show male ended up in a shelter in Los Angeles or Vancouver. They'd classify him as a "pit bull"... why? Well, the likelihood of me losing him with his pedigree papers tied around his neck is pretty un-freaking-likely. If he ever landed in a shelter down here - they'd slap a "pit bull" title on him as well, why? He has cropped ears, unlike some of the Amstaff lines I've seen here he's got a very N. American style head - long in the nose with a broad full muzzle, a pronounced stop... and you bet your bum he's to standard, his parents have won titles in Europe, Canada, U.S. and S. America. The shelter I worked at back in Canada called all dogs they took in of that type Amstaffs, why? When they advertised the dogs for adoption, it made them more appealing to families and less appealing to scumbags. And guess what, we do it down here in Australia as well, and I would know; I worked at an RPSCA in NSW. I've seen female come in CAR registered as APBT (owner didn't claim, so she legally had to be held for 14 days) - But guess what, no one bothered to inform council that she whelped a litter within a couple of days of coming in. 6 weeks later this RPSCA had 6 "Staffy crosses" up for adoption. I've seen a 22 point check list done on a dog (such a farce, I know)... a shelter favourite. He's now "an Amstaff".

This dog, http://pbrc.net/webapp/pics/fullsize/202_32923.jpg?30626 is currently up for adoption in New York as an APBT/Amstaff, and I'd put really good money that a shelter down here would call her Staffy X. Go back to the website, www.pbrc.net and look at a chunk of the dogs available for adoption, how many of them would be called "Staffy" or "Staffy X's" down here? How many of them would you see walking down the street? I know I've seen lots of them.

http://pbrc.net/webapp/pics/fullsize/4922_18744.jpg?73088 - Described as a "pit bull mix"... he is 80+ lbs (~37 kgs) after all

http://www.respect-a-bull.com/adoptabledogs.htm - All such brilliant dogs, look at the puppies... what would they have been called down here? Oh and what about "Buster"? And god, the amount of times I've seen "Blue" down here in vet clinics I work at. And for some stupid reason, they're getting so freakishly popular.

Or go to Yagoona's Adopt-A-Pet webpage, there's a STUNNING "Alaskan Malamute X Bullmastiff", among many, many other American Staffy X's.. Which good on the RSPCA for calling them Amstaff, I like how they're using the name. Not letting the power only be used by a certain group of people. Even in Brisbane/QLD the RSPCA is starting to use the term Amstaffs for some of their adoptable dogs (including a handsome cream coloured male *gasp!*)... but wait, the RPSCA isn't an ANKC approved body... how can they be Amstaff?!?!?!?! (Please note the sarcasm in that)

To quote Shakespeare, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet". Though honestly, after spending time in Australia, I'm half tempted to change the word "rose" to "flaming pile of poo” and sweet into... well, I think you get the idea. The government, kennels clubs, ET all honestly thought that if you changed a name, all the problems with the name would go away. And this is where the problem really is. It hasn't changed the problems. Fatal dog attacks have not gone away, more bites than ever are being reported each year that passes, you have Staffordshire Bull Terriers leading the bite statistics. I watched a proper Eng Staffy brought into the RSPCA to be surrendered - why? At the dog beach earlier that day he got into a dog fight. He grabbed, held and shook the other dog. Was he an APBT? My aforementioned male pedigreed Amstaff does the same thing if he gets into a fight - does that automatically make him an American Pit Bull Terrier? At the Perth Royal Show, I heard some of the male handlers talk about how even though it wasn't appropriate, they loved see how one of the males got on top of the carrier of another Amstaff and the two dogs had a snarf-fest, only stopping because the people got in there and intervened.. Something about "nice to see they still have their original purpose in them". My female rescue, Autumn spent the first four years of her life in doggie daycare, and is a social dream... does that make her an Amstaff, or because she does the Staffy frog sprawl & crawl when you scratch her butt and chortles, an Eng Staffy? But wait, I know the kennel her mom came from... they don't have Eng Staffys. Because you keep calling them "Staffys" Australia has forgotten one of the most important part of the dogs' name (and it's in ALL the breeds, APBT, SBT, AST) - Terrier. They are a large Terrier, and all need to be supervised, trained, and managed appropriately. For Christssake, most people can't manage the 5 kg Jack Russell Terrier, why does anyone think it's easier to handle a 15 or even 30 kg Terrier?

And then there's also the fact that in N. America, many of the dog fight busts are churning out... guess what? These funny little gremlins that could only be called Staffordshire Bull Terriers and crosses there of. The ground breaking case of Michael Vick showed us that even AKC registered Staffordshire Bull Terrier are landing in the ring. Why? Well again, it could be they're all the same type of dog. But I've heard/seen (and tend to believe) that it has more to to do with size. Many APBT and some Amstaffs are becoming VERY large (especially on the West Coast, and yes, within the standard) - they're breeding back to the originals to produce an "ideal" dog (no more than about 40 lbs.. or ~17 kgs). I love showing this pic http://www.badrap.org/rescue/index.html to Aussies; it makes their heads spin. All dogs in that large picture were taken from the Michael Vick bust - but do you know how many times I've heard "but, that look like X..."

I hope that's given you perspective, or an idea of just how messed up it is and I apologize I went so long. It really honestly depends on the breeder, and how well that person knows his line and his lines history. But your all breeds judge was vaguely right, they are the same dog (or maybe more specifically, type.. or hell, it's just as likely one is a subset of the other – think Dachshund and Wire-Haired Dachshund), some just have more exclusive invitations to certain events than others. And I can say as a Purebred, Pedigreed Amstaff owner that I feel like the person with the designer dress who has an “in” to the party because my best friend is boinking the host... Meanwhile my twin sister feels left out because she doesn’t have that same best friend or fancy dress... and I know that feeling too because I own a rescued Amstaff/Bully Breed/godknowswhat . But as “twin sisters” our characteristics, mannerisms and looks are so much that same that anyone could tell that we’re from the same family.

Edited by rep628

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geo   

Great post rep628. I hope many people read it! Very accurate it made me laugh.

Now i do believe people that have pure blood lines will argue the point, but really they probably wouldn't care what you call their dog.

It's true, you mention pitbull people think fighting dog, you mention amstaff everyone goes oh how handsome.

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Rottsup   

What a fantastic post rep628. I have certainly learnt a whole lot of information that I wasn't aware of and now it makes much more sense to me about all 3 of these breeds.

In the past I would say "it's an Amstaff or Pit Bull or I don't know, one of those breeds" Now I see they are all the same.

It also makes sense when that poor dog was in a kennel in NSW for a couple of years and the owners lived in Qld as the Qld authorities (court judge) would not allow this breed into the state and DNA testing showed the dog to have the exact same DNA as an Amstaff, Pit Bull or Staffy (as we know them) therefore ruled that the dog could not enter Queensland. I felt for the poor dog though, living in a boarding kennel for that long and for all I know he is still there....what a life NOT!!

Thanks again for your very informative post!

Cheers

Rottsup

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rep628   
Great post rep628. I hope many people read it! Very accurate it made me laugh.

Now i do believe people that have pure blood lines will argue the point, but really they probably wouldn't care what you call their dog.

It's true, you mention pitbull people think fighting dog, you mention amstaff everyone goes oh how handsome.

And hey, I can argue that "point" (no sarcasm there, just using your exact word) - My male is a FCI/Canadian Kennel Club registered (and the CKC is a ANKC recognized body) American Staffordshire Terrier. I've researched the lines on his pedigree papers, which might I add are Belgium & Spanish lines - There is no detectable American Pit Bull Terrier dogs on those papers. So yeah, I could get uptight, but I don't. But I also realize what my dog looks like to Joe Public, and as I said in my original post, there was nothing stopping me from walking into a UKC/ADBA breed registry office and registering him as an APBT. And his characteristics fit perfectly into the type of dog that he is - and that honestly knocked my elitist Amstaff head around when he first became dog aggressive. But wait, the more I asked around in the Amstaff world, the more I found out that even show dogs can be "Hot".... oh yeah, and that his dad was "Hot". Bloody Hell

I'm proud for people to call him a "pit bull" because well, that's what he is. Remember, it those two words just define a TYPE of dog.. AND if they use it in the right way; no one in Aussieland calls him that except for my b/f and his brother, why? They don't use with all the negative connotations.. that and one's a pilot in the Airforce, the other is a firefighter, so these men are professionals, not "bogans" wanting to "represent", or show off, or do whatever they do in this country. It's a term like "Weiner (Sausage) Dog" Standard Dachshunds, Mini's and Wire-Haired Dachshunds all fit into that type, don't you think? - oh and wait.. as I read my "The Encyclopedia of The Dog" by Dr. Bruce Fogle, it states that, "In Germany.... they are categorized by chest circumference". Isn't that interesting how a dog might fit into one description here in the ANKC, but can easily slide into a different "breed" classificationin another country (like Germany) or they're all just one breed (like in the USA)? :p But the overall purpose is the same, and all the "different" breeds all fall into a bell curve of traits and tendencies that are commonplace to the type.

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chrisjc   

You are 100% right, but the problem is the "type" name is so close to the Apbt name, joe public sees them as the same dog, it is also the problem that has got worse in America because there are more "new" breeds that are using the name "pitbull" like the American bully people, they are happy to call their dogs APBT until they find out the owner doesnt want one then they are just as happy to say it isnt an apbt and call it a bully or a xxxlbully or any one of the other names they use to peddle their wares.

rep, the problem with also is joe public doesnt care if the amstaff was first reg in 1936 they still think if they came from apbt they still are even after such along time.

sure you look in a six or eight gen ped you are not going to see any apbt which is what matters realy but go further and of course you will find apbt in the history because the apbt is where every single amstaff came from at one stage.

the average person looks at my dog and questions the breed, when i say she is an Apbt, most people tell me to feed her more or ask if she never grew properly. Truth is 35pounds is a pretty typical size for a purebred Apbt female.

the public are under the impression that a pitbull should be 90 pounds plus which is beyond a joke to any Apbt owner.

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BMAK   

Hi guys i am really sorry if i have or am about to repeat what you have just typed, i had a small brief read of the top section but this happened the other day and was wondering can you help?

i do obedience and don't own solid strong dogs, but i was talking to one of the men behind the office counters and another man and his partner approached and were registering to become a member on the form one question asks "BREED" i knew that they had a amstaff, blue n white they told me as she is just devine and i have seen them many times before.

Well anyway back to the point the man behind the counter took their word for that she is a amstaff not a APBT as he himself could not tell the difference (without testing) and she was friendly but "club rules" states no restricted or dangerous dogs allowed".

I dont want to see people pushed away becasue of the deeds of other dogs do that stop this beauty becoming a member and he didnt want to go against the legal system if that dog had been restricted breed but my question is

is there any way you can determine the distinct difference between and american staff and a american P.B.T

not character and personality, but size, shape, colour, face shape, height???

again sorry for reposting

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Rusky   
Hi guys i am really sorry if i have or am about to repeat what you have just typed, i had a small brief read of the top section but this happened the other day and was wondering can you help?

i do obedience and don't own solid strong dogs, but i was talking to one of the men behind the office counters and another man and his partner approached and were registering to become a member on the form one question asks "BREED" i knew that they had a amstaff, blue n white they told me as she is just devine and i have seen them many times before.

Well anyway back to the point the man behind the counter took their word for that she is a amstaff not a APBT as he himself could not tell the difference (without testing) and she was friendly but "club rules" states no restricted or dangerous dogs allowed".

I dont want to see people pushed away becasue of the deeds of other dogs do that stop this beauty becoming a member and he didnt want to go against the legal system if that dog had been restricted breed but my question is

is there any way you can determine the distinct difference between and american staff and a american P.B.T

not character and personality, but size, shape, colour, face shape, height???

again sorry for reposting

APBT do not have a breed standard as they are not a recognised breed, so the answer is no.It is very easy with a google to find the stahdard for an american staffy :love:

Edited by Rusky

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geo   
APBT do not have a breed standard as they are not a recognised breed, so the answer is no.It is very easy with a google to find the stahdard for an american staffy :bolt:

You mean the AKNC doesn't recognise them as a breed. But the government must do as they have banned them..?

Rep628s post says it all really, same same but different enough if you want it to be.

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rep628   
APBT do not have a breed standard as they are not a recognised breed, so the answer is no.It is very easy with a google to find the stahdard for an american staffy :p

Actually, they do. Though because the kennel clubs that hold the standards don't operate in full here. The Kennel Clubs that recognize the APBT and hold a standard for the breed are the United Kennel Club (UKC) & the American Dog Breeders Association (ADBA). If you go to www.google.ca (not www.google."com" - that's a whole other post) and look it up, you should be able to find each respective kennel club and their standards for the dogs

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wiseguy   
APBT do not have a breed standard as they are not a recognised breed, so the answer is no.It is very easy with a google to find the stahdard for an american staffy :hug:

Actually, they do. Though because the kennel clubs that hold the standards don't operate in full here. The Kennel Clubs that recognize the APBT and hold a standard for the breed are the United Kennel Club (UKC) & the American Dog Breeders Association (ADBA). If you go to www.google.ca (not www.google."com" - that's a whole other post) and look it up, you should be able to find each respective kennel club and their standards for the dogs

The APBT has never, ever been recognised as a pure breed by the AKC. Not even way back when.

This rebuff of the ''breed'' was the catalyst for C.C.Bennet to raise the U.K.C. Specifically to register his own dog. Bennets Ring.

The U.K.C is a privately owned commercial enterprise. & a very profitable one at that.

No dog, solely registered with the U.K.C, is recognised as a pure breed by any affiliated pure breed registery in world.

The major difference between the American Staffordshire Terrier & the American Pitbull Terrier, besides the name, is one has been faithfully bred to a registered standard, the other to an opinion.

One is a genuine APBT, the other isn't.

However, the U.K.C now no longer recognises AKC registered AST's as APBT's. Bit of payback there me thinks.

So people holding cc registered papers for their A.S.T can now feel a little more secure for the future of their breed.

APBT owners? your struggle still has way to go.

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ruthless   

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you be realllllllllly hard pushed to find a blue and white APBT in Australia? An unpapered Amstaff sure, but a pure APBT?

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wiseguy   
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you be realllllllllly hard pushed to find a blue and white APBT in Australia? An unpapered Amstaff sure, but a pure APBT?

Unpapered?

Maybe, but unlikely (altho the bitch does have terrible ears)

Image5a.jpg

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geo   

Yeah no blue and white pits in Aus, and no rednose amstaffs here either... or are there, there's rednose amstaffs in the states.

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ruthless   
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you be realllllllllly hard pushed to find a blue and white APBT in Australia? An unpapered Amstaff sure, but a pure APBT?

Unpapered?

Maybe, but unlikely (altho the bitch does have terrible ears)

It's often said here that an unpapered Amstaff is an APBT in the eyes of the law. What I meant, in my badly worded sentence above, is I don't think there are any blue and white APBTs [with light eyes] in this country. There are plenty of blue and white Amstaffs without pedigree papers, but not pure APBTs like you see in the US. [Am I making sense? I know what I mean!]

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wiseguy   
Yeah no blue and white pits in Aus, and no rednose amstaffs here either... or are there, there's rednose amstaffs in the states.

Depends on your point of view &/or your interpretion/knowledge, of the breed(s) history.

Those who consider the breeds to be one & the same would dispute there are no pure bred blue & white ''APBT''s in Australia (see the magazine cover posted above :( )

It would be distinct possiblity that the only red nose ASTs in the U.S.A would only be found in the areas where the APBT was banned.

Interchangeable breeds. Depending on the situation. Very conveniment.

Just playing devils advocate you understand. ;)

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