JulesP Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 I hope you are better with dogs then you are with people. You know that was not very nice at all. I have not said one rude thing to you and have been very nice. Really Jules I do not care what you believe. But I do want others reading this to know that the working dogs in Australia are not freaks, they are not unrecognizable from their UK brothers. They are well worth a look at if anyone is thinking of getting a working dog or thinking of importing new bloodlines to other places in the world. So on this note I suggest we leave it at that, unless you want to comment any more on the Australian working dogs as in comparison to ISDS dogs from trials you saw as a child. No I am not going to let you get away with that. You spent god knows how long to find a photo so you could accuse me of only liking " pretty long coats flowing in the breeze" so don't be acting all innocent. Who the hell said freaks? Stop putting words into my mouth. Apologies to the OP. I was generally interested in finding out more about a certain type of working BC as I am disenchanted with some things to do with ANKC BC. Might just change breeds instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 (edited) I hope you are better with dogs then you are with people. You know that was not very nice at all. I have not said one rude thing to you and have been very nice. Really Jules I do not care what you believe. But I do want others reading this to know that the working dogs in Australia are not freaks, they are not unrecognizable from their UK brothers. They are well worth a look at if anyone is thinking of getting a working dog or thinking of importing new bloodlines to other places in the world. So on this note I suggest we leave it at that, unless you want to comment any more on the Australian working dogs as in comparison to ISDS dogs from trials you saw as a child. No I am not going to let you get away with that. You spent god knows how long to find a photo so you could accuse me of only liking " pretty long coats flowing in the breeze" so don't be acting all innocent. Who the hell said freaks? Stop putting words into my mouth. Apologies to the OP. I was generally interested in finding out more about a certain type of working BC as I am disenchanted with some things to do with ANKC BC. Might just change breeds instead. Jules you have a chip on your shoulder. I have spent 30 years spending as you put it, god knows how much time learing about this breed. Today I takes me seconds to think of a dog that lived at a certain time. With the web being what it is, it only takes seconds more to find a photo. What takes me the longest is to double check the dates they won the Supreme or Nationals. I think this demonstrats that you have a wrong opinion about what I am doing. I am sorry you are disenchanted, but I also think it is good you recognize that. I am not sure what you mean by the different types of working border collies. If you want to identfy the types of working border collies you mean, I will do my best to discribe them and any difference I am aware of. That is the best I can offer, as I can not read your mind. Edited to Add, I never said you called them freaks. Edited December 23, 2010 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 Jules you have a chip on your shoulder. I have spent 30 years spending as you put it, god knows how much time learing about this breed. Today I takes me seconds to think of a dog that lived at a certain time. With the web being what it is, it only takes seconds more to find a photo. What takes me the longest is to double check the dates they won the Supreme or Nationals. I think this demonstrats that you have a wrong opinion about what I am doing. I am sorry you are disenchanted, but I also think it is good you recognize that. I am not sure what you mean by the different types of working border collies. If you want to identfy the types of working border collies you mean, I will do my best to discribe them and any difference I am aware of. That is the best I can offer, as I can not read your mind. Edited to Add, I never said you called them freaks. No it is you that has the chip on their shoulder. If that is not the case why have you reacted so strongly to me just saying the dogs didn't look like the dogs I remember? Again I didn't say anything negative about the dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvawilow Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 So are the working BC's we see at trials like the ones bred by Greg Prince and the like ISDS registered or are they from a different registery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 So, why can't show border collies in Aussie have short coats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigdogg Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 Im happy this pup is coming from good Working lines.. I hope you post pics & updates as you start to train your pup Im shocking... I still have to take some pics of my alloy dog cage for one of the members on DOL Im also about 5 months behind in taking a photo of my bitch pup for the Bullarab registry.. I love looking at the 'action' picks of working dogs, so will try and take a few shots and comment on its progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casster17 Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 (edited) biggd i look forward to seeing pics and hearing the stories of your b/c pup... Edited December 23, 2010 by Casster17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 So, why can't show border collies in Aussie have short coats? Well they can but it should be viewed as a fault according to the standard. Why is it like that in the standard? I have no idea. It is one of the things in the standard that I don't agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benshiva Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 My longgggg legged - short coated show border collie. wow, he does have long legs & a shortish coat. Did you breed him? Are the others from his litter similar in appearance? I have seen a few young dogs around agility lately with similar appearance, maybe they are related. Will be interesting to see his progeny. Has he been bred yet? Hi Vickie how have you been? I did breed him. He is a grandson of our lovely Shiva. There are two sisters of his that I see either photos of or in person regularly and they are quite leggy too. I can't wait to see how they grow on. One of the girls is in SA and will do Agility. He's quite young still so I won't use him at stud for a little while yet. I'm interested to see how he grows on too. I'm very taken with this young dog ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benshiva Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 MULTI Best In Show winning GR CH Benshiva Dot Com A very moderately coated Border Collie that did extremely well in the show ring until he retired 2 years ago. This is him in almost full coat. Lovely dog! How tall is he? Hi Shortstep. Thank you. I adore this boy of mine. He is just over 20 inches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasha Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 Silvawillow, the dogs bred by greg Prince and other triallers are registered with the state Sheepdog workers incorporate.(NSW Sheepdog workers). There is a registry for each state and also an Australian body. Some dogs that others trial may be ISDS registered also or be bred from ISDS registered dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 (edited) Silvawillow, the dogs bred by greg Prince and other triallers are registered with the state Sheepdog workers incorporate.(NSW Sheepdog workers). There is a registry for each state and also an Australian body. Some dogs that others trial may be ISDS registered also or be bred from ISDS registered dogs. Just to be clear, the state Sheepdog Workers Associations are not purebred stud books for border collies or any breed. Anyone that trails with them has to register their dog. They register all sorts of breeds, cross breeds and unknown heritage dogs. This is not a transferable pedigree to any working border collie studbooks around the world (ABCA CBCA ISDS). Nor do they certify or verify pedigrees. The Australia Working Border Collie Registry (AWBC) is the purebred studbook for border collies in Australia (it is the same as the WKC for kelpies that you might use). They only register verifiable purebred border collies of working bloodlines. AWBC is internationally transferable/acceptable to the ABCA American Border Collie and the CBCA Canadian Border Collie and currently gaining approval for acceptance with ISDS. Besides veryifying pedigrees as true and correct and the dog is a purebred border collie, they also issue certified pedigrees for dogs being transfered to other registires around the world. This is the only registry for purebred working border collies in Australia that is accepted into the main working registries in the world, allowing OZ dogs to go to the US, Canada, UK and points beyond and be registered/accepted in their new countires stud book. This would then also allow that same dog or it's offspring after being registered in the new countires working registry to then be registered in the kennel club in that country, including AKC US, CKC/CBCA parent club Canada or The Kennel Club UK. Many dogs at 3 sheep trail in Australia will be purebred border collies and registered AWBC or ABCA ISDS or another border collie registry. In much the same way as kelpies at a three sheep trial could also be purebred and registered in the WKC. Hope that makes sense. On the other hand, many dogs at a sheepdog trail (so would have to be registered in the state sheepdog workers associations) would not be able to register with AWBC registry as the dogs do not have purebred pedigrees, have pedigrees that indicate they are a different breed, or a cross breds, or have incomplete pedigrees with missing ancestors or the ancestors that are listed are unknown and never registered. There will also be many dogs at trails that could be registered as purebred working border collies with AWBC but the owners do not bother or do not want to spend the money on official international accepted registration. All of the above can also apply to farm dogs, from purebred and properly registered, to pedigrees/breeds unknown. Edited December 23, 2010 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigdogg Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 So do you think this pup would be a SWA or a AWBC registrable? Or do you need to see the pedigree? QCD is the start of the rego # but seems to be mainly on the grandparents ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 (edited) So, why can't show border collies in Aussie have short coats? Well they can but it should be viewed as a fault according to the standard. Why is it like that in the standard? I have no idea. It is one of the things in the standard that I don't agree with. OK, thanks. It seems strange to me. Most of our working eye dogs (working B.C. and the very closely related N.Z.H.D) have short coats. Seems strange to me that these dogs would be "wrong" in Aussie. Perhaps the long coat is preferable in Scotland/England for some reason, and maybe it's better in Aussie for some reason? But the cockies here definitely seem to prefer short coats on their workers, all other things being equal, so I'm glad our standard allows it. Edited December 23, 2010 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 So do you think this pup would be a SWA or a AWBC registrable? Or do you need to see the pedigree?QCD is the start of the rego # but seems to be mainly on the grandparents ? I would think both. I would recommend AWBC if you plan to breed or you are not going to trial and only want to pay for one registry. If you are going to trial then you will need to do SWA, but I would still recommend AWBC if you plan to breed. AWBC web site is down right now being rebuilt. Anyone wanting to reach them for information can reach them at 02 6543 7885 or AWBC <[email protected]> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 (edited) So, why can't show border collies in Aussie have short coats? Well they can but it should be viewed as a fault according to the standard. Why is it like that in the standard? I have no idea. It is one of the things in the standard that I don't agree with. OK, thanks. It seems strange to me. Most of our working eye dogs (working B.C. and the very closely related N.Z.H.D) have short coats. Seems strange to me that these dogs would be "wrong" in Aussie. Perhaps the long coat is preferable in Scotland/England for some reason, and maybe it's better in Aussie for some reason? But the cockies here definitely seem to prefer short coats on their workers, all other things being equal, so I'm glad our standard allows it. I would say smoth coats are by far prefered in Australia, also a must in the hot or grassy areas of the US and Canada such as the west and central areas, and they are also prefered in soughtern europe africa and south america. We need to remember that the border collie is used world wide for sheep cattle and goats and is the most popular of the working breeds right now. However a lot of people just really like the ease of care and will have nothing else except smooth coats no matter where they live or do with their dogs, many in dogs sports prefer the smooth coat both in looks (looks more sporty and stealth) and ease of of upkeep. Some people believe the rough coats are better in the wet and snow, but that is not really always the case. Wet snow binds to long hair and can really be a problem on a working dog, they also take much longer to dry off so stay cold longer and in strong winds such as in the fells this can be very seriouse. Anyway the bottom line is that it is still a working dog and varity of coats are needed to suit the conditions of it's work and the handlers opinions. There have always been smooth, rough and all lenghts inbetween, and there always will be. Edited December 23, 2010 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benshiva Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 I really love a nice short coated BC. On one of my many travels overseas to look at my beloved breed I came across the most stunning short coat Border Collie girl working sheep. She was amazing and I would have loved to have her in my yard. A correct long coated Border Collie should not retain water in their coats as it is supposed to be water resistant. The top coat should appear quite harsh to the touch making it very hard for water/snow to stick to protecting the dog from the elements. There is a purpose to the longer coats as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 (edited) I really love a nice short coated BC. On one of my many travels overseas to look at my beloved breed I came across the most stunning short coat Border Collie girl working sheep. She was amazing and I would have loved to have her in my yard.A correct long coated Border Collie should not retain water in their coats as it is supposed to be water resistant. The top coat should appear quite harsh to the touch making it very hard for water/snow to stick to protecting the dog from the elements. There is a purpose to the longer coats as well. Yes that is true but it is also true the wet snow will stick to almost anything, anything hanging will get little balls of snow, which become big balls of snow. I know as I used to have to deal with it. Also can clump up on their feet if the hair is not trimed. Personally I like the rough coat and it suited where I lived before just fine. Here it is a bit of a pain. Right now if I take my dogs out to gather the paddock I have to do a very through comb out right after words or we are at the vet a few days later to get a grass seed taken out of some part of their body. To get out all the grass seeds will take me about 1 hour for about 10 min of paddock time. So I can see why a farmer would not want to be doing this. For me it is not that big of deal, my dogs are pets first and are not in the paddocks much this time year anyway due to snakes. The coat on your grand champion was beautiful! In fact he was beautiful all around. Can I ask a silly questions and likely very far off base, but is he related to Naroff (hope I spelled that right) dogs? I have looked at their site a few times and met a few of their dogs and he just reminds me of them in the front end, head neck shoulder area. Very nice. Edited December 24, 2010 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benshiva Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 I really love a nice short coated BC. On one of my many travels overseas to look at my beloved breed I came across the most stunning short coat Border Collie girl working sheep. She was amazing and I would have loved to have her in my yard.A correct long coated Border Collie should not retain water in their coats as it is supposed to be water resistant. The top coat should appear quite harsh to the touch making it very hard for water/snow to stick to protecting the dog from the elements. There is a purpose to the longer coats as well. Yes that is true but it is also true the wet snow will stick to almost anything, anything hanging will get little balls of snow, which become big balls of snow. I know as I used to have to deal with it. Also can clump up on their feet if the hair is not trimed. Personally I like the rough coat and it suited where I lived before just fine. Here it is a bit of a pain. Right now if I take my dogs out to gather the paddock I have to do a very through comb out right after words or we are at the vet a few days later to get a grass seed taken out of some part of their body. To get out all the grass seeds will take me about 1 hour for about 10 min of paddock time. So I can see why a farmer would not want to be doing this. For me it is not that big of deal, my dogs are pets first and are not in the paddocks much this time year anyway due to snakes. The coat on your grand champion was beautiful! In fact he was beautiful all around. Can I ask a silly questions and likely very far off base, but is he related to Naroff (hope I spelled that right) dogs? I have looked at their site a few times and met a few of their dogs and he just reminds me of them in the front end, head neck shoulder area. Very nice. I think the shorter coats suit our climate as well. Webster is related to Nahrof dogs. My whole kennel is based on Nahrof dogs (or are Nahrof dogs ). Very well picked up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigdogg Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 So do you think this pup would be a SWA or a AWBC registrable? Or do you need to see the pedigree?QCD is the start of the rego # but seems to be mainly on the grandparents ? I would think both. I would recommend AWBC if you plan to breed or you are not going to trial and only want to pay for one registry. If you are going to trial then you will need to do SWA, but I would still recommend AWBC if you plan to breed. AWBC web site is down right now being rebuilt. Anyone wanting to reach them for information can reach them at 02 6543 7885 or AWBC <[email protected]> Thanks Dont think ill go down the breeding track - unless he is a cracker of dog. I got a mate thats starting to trial, so I may just tag along one day.. Thanks for all your help.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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