Dog Snapped At Baby, Help

[halfthewords]

There are only 4 kinds of training collars: a flat collar, a prong collar, a dominant dog collar and a remote collar - which one you use depends on the dogs temperament and training level. Frankly for this I would be using a prong or a remote collar.

That is copied and pasted from the article.

And to me a level 9 correction is as hard as I can.

What is a "level 9 correction"?

What article did you copy and paste that from - it wasn't in the Leerburg article you linked to?

click on the ebook on the same page.

Sounds like many of you don't know even how to correct a dog or the levels involved I don't know about you but a full strength correction from me and I'm an average built guy would never seriously hurt a dog.

A leash correction is only using the lower part of your arm not your whole body.

I have yet to ever have a fully grown large dog wince in pain to a very hard correction from myself.

I have had dogs of shy temperaments shut down for a moment but they bounce back with a bit of encouragement.

I and my parents have ran the RSPCA animal shelter in Burnie tasmania many years ago. I and my father have trained a lot of dogs with different temperaments from shy to aggressive and yes I have been bitten a few times over the years but at the end of the day I have always achieved results. me and my father have saved alot of dogs from being PTS. Back then I never even used treats in my training but over the years I have learned different things and I am still learning. As I stated before It was only an idea of probably many methods that would work.

What on earth would prompt you to physically correct a shy dog that hard? I can tell you as the owner of an abused and extremely shy (and usually aggressive as a last resort) dog, that you would not have a hand if you tried it on him. Force should not be used on animals with temperaments like this. Especially not with a prong collar!

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

There are only 4 kinds of training collars: a flat collar, a prong collar, a dominant dog collar and a remote collar - which one you use depends on the dogs temperament and training level. Frankly for this I would be using a prong or a remote collar.

That is copied and pasted from the article.

And to me a level 9 correction is as hard as I can.

What is a "level 9 correction"?

What article did you copy and paste that from - it wasn't in the Leerburg article you linked to?

click on the ebook on the same page.

Sounds like many of you don't know even how to correct a dog or the levels involved I don't know about you but a full strength correction from me and I'm an average built guy would never seriously hurt a dog.

A leash correction is only using the lower part of your arm not your whole body.

I have yet to ever have a fully grown large dog wince in pain to a very hard correction from myself.

I have had dogs of shy temperaments shut down for a moment but they bounce back with a bit of encouragement.

I and my parents have ran the RSPCA animal shelter in Burnie tasmania many years ago. I and my father have trained a lot of dogs with different temperaments from shy to aggressive and yes I have been bitten a few times over the years but at the end of the day I have always achieved results. me and my father have saved alot of dogs from being PTS. Back then I never even used treats in my training but over the years I have learned different things and I am still learning. As I stated before It was only an idea of probably many methods that would work.

What on earth would prompt you to physically correct a shy dog that hard? I can tell you as the owner of an abused and extremely shy (and usually aggressive as a last resort) dog, that you would not have a hand if you tried it on him. Force should not be used on animals with temperaments like this. Especially not with a prong collar!

and even worse, i think those dogs were probably re-homed to an unsuspecting public

[Guest Willow]

You need a prong collar and a long line lay your kids clothing on the floor and let the dog in as soon as it goes near the clothes give Extremely hard correction as hard as you can.

Repeat this until the dog will not go near them.

Your dog will learn that if he goes near the baby or anything that smell like the baby is a big no no.

What the dog will learn is that anything that smells like the baby is dangerous & frightening. Nice way to build a good relationship between dog & child

That is probably one of the WORST pieces of advice I have ever seen given on this forum.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Willow

[moosepup]

You need a prong collar and a long line lay your kids clothing on the floor and let the dog in as soon as it goes near the clothes give Extremely hard correction as hard as you can.

Repeat this until the dog will not go near them.

Your dog will learn that if he goes near the baby or anything that smell like the baby is a big no no.

What the dog will learn is that anything that smells like the baby is dangerous & frightening. Nice way to build a good relationship between dog & child

That is probably one of the WORST pieces of advice I have ever seen given on this forum.

Exactly. I don't see how this is going to build a positive relationship between a child and a dog which is ultimately what you want (surely). Outrageous.

[poodlefan]

Picture a dog physically corrected for showing any interest in a child. Imagine the impact of a severe correction on a prong collar for sniffing clothing. Would the dog understand the lesson? My guess is not.

Now picture that dog among children in a family home. The stress for the dog if the child showed any interest in it would be profound.. anticipating a severe correction for attention it could not avoid.

Now lets add a tendency to defensive aggression and what do we have? Do the math people.

Seriously, giving advice to reef the hell out of a dog on a prong collar? Is that the best some can do? Didn't we get the bigger brains for a reason?

How about a little active management and teaching both dog and child about appropriate interaction? I fail to see how dogs or children learn anything if the dog has been taught that any interest meets with punishment. How does a growing child develop any sort of relationship with an animal that's been taught to avoid or be punished?

[huski]

Picture a dog physically corrected for showing any interest in a child. Imagine the impact of a severe correction on a prong collar for sniffing clothing. Would the dog understand the lesson? My guess is not.

Now picture that dog among children in a family home. The stress for the dog if the child showed any interest in it would be profound.. anticipating a severe correction for attention it could not avoid.

Now lets add a tendency to defensive aggression and what do we have? Do the math people.

Seriously, giving advice to reef the hell out of a dog on a prong collar? Is that the best some can do? Didn't we get the bigger brains for a reason?

How about a little active management and teaching both dog and child about appropriate interaction? I fail to see how dogs or children learn anything if the dog has been taught that any interest meets with punishment. How does a growing child develop any sort of relationship with an animal that's been taught to avoid or be punished?

Agreed!

[poodlefan]

I used the word "punishment" quite deliberately by the way.

"correction" implies the dog knows the appropriate behaviour.

[Cosmolo]

And the award for 'Most dangerous advice given on Dogzonline' goes to...

That is the most outrageous, incorrect and dangerous advice i think i have ever seen.

I have no issue with using corrections when appropriate. But to think that pairing a child with a harsh physical correction is proper training is insane. Going by your original description, the dog will simply learn that children create extremely unpleasant consequences. What do you think will happen later when the child approaches the dog? Would not be a good outcome. :)

[minxy]

And here I thought you were supposed to teach dogs that children are a good thing, and encourage positive interactions with them... I fail to see how mistreating your dog every time it goes near anything remotely relating to the child is going to teach the dog that the child has any value. Not only does the "correction" method sound horrible, I really can't see it doing anything more than making the dog resent the child.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

yep, resent the child and be confused and nervous then maybe bite the kid to keep it away before the punishment comes..

this was the worst advice i have heard

[all creatures]

Crikey - I would never even lightly smack my pets/dogs - ever - and what the hell is a pronged collar? It sounds like something out of the Dark Ages

I agree with the comments here - cruelty is not the answer - nor ever - it's just "ruling through fear".

And are these things actually allowed by the RSPCA and/or legal???

I'll bet if it became common public knowledge the outcry would soon fix that.

[Staranais]

Sadly, you're right. Outcry from people who haven't seen these tools used appropriately has caused the prong (aka pinch aka pressure point) collar to be banned in many places, to the detriment of legitimite trainers. Advice like the advice given in this thread is not going to help the situation, either.

If you try out the prong collar on yourself, you'll understand that when a correction is given it feels uncomfortable (that's the point, after all), but no more so than a check chain (and it is safer, as it's limited slip - hence my preference for the pinch collar over a check chain).

It is not an appropriate for all dogs or all situations, is not an appropriate tool for unskilled handlers, and you certainly don't need one to train a dog, but any abuse is in the handler not the tool - exactly like any other correction collar, including check chains & head collars.

[persephone]

OT- all creatures, I'm glad you don't smack your dogs.. that isn't a very useful training tool

A prong collar, used with knowledge, can be very useful with some dogs ..and is no more 'cruel' than other training tools when used correctly

what the hell is a pronged collar? It sounds like something out of the Dark Ages

I'll bet if it became common public knowledge the outcry would soon fix that.

perhaps do some research ? Do a search on here- there are several public discussions , for a start :D

Edited January 26, 2011 by persephone

[raineth]

You are classically conditioning the dog/s to be terrified of babies!

What utter craziness!

You scorn the use of a cookie" you wouldn't believe what can be achieved with classical conditioning via the use of cookies!

With the correct use of "cookies" you would end up with a dog that thinks babies are nice to be around - but understands that it is not to actually interact or be in contact with a baby, or the baby's things.

This is important Because we can never completely control everything!

[TrinaJ]

That advice should be removed from this thread, its the most dangerous piece of uneducated bull sh*t I have ever read here.

What you are potentially doing is going to make the dog hate babies :

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

That advice should be removed from this thread, its the most dangerous piece of uneducated bull sh*t I have ever read here.

What you are potentially doing is going to make the dog hate babies :

that's what i was thinking although enough of us have said it is very dangerous advice

[Fourjays]

Professional advice is always warranted and helpful in these sorts of situations.

I have 4 dogs and will not tolerate any sort of negative reaction on their part, towards my son. He has been raised with and around them, from day dot. I had trouble once he was at the pre-walker/toddler stage when he was pulling himself up using anything and everything to hold onto (which included any hapless dog standing around - they were not happy that this cute baby was no moving!). 1 dog snapped at him one time, whilst we were all in the kitchen area, which was a big shock! The dog was majorly corrected for it and all interactions thereafter around that dog were very closely supervised - lots of praise for that particular dog for being gentle and tolerant when my son was around. I found though that just instigating a few more rules (on our part), and we have had no further problems (I also had the dog chiro'd and he had a very sore back at the time, as the behaviour was uncharacteristic). The rules included no dogs around ever, when food preparation/eating was happening and baby was running around (and no access when he was eating either - they always went outside). The dogs also needed their own time out area from the child, so they have beds that he is not allowed to go near when they are in it (when he was little, I used crates for this purpose). I have made it pretty clear to the dogs, that my son is, and always will be, more important than they are and mostly this has been reinforced via who gets attention first. Some of my dogs are quite attention demanding, so I found that the fact they were ignored when I needed to do things with my son, helped them to understand. I also started having my son help feed them, from when he was about 2 and could talk well. I think it's really important to make sure the dog has really really good bite inhibition and it's also really important for the child to learn from day dot, what is and isn't, acceptable around the dogs. No running/squealing in the house, let sleeping dogs lie, and no going near them when they are in their 'space', no going near them when they are eating.

Aside from 1 time when my son jumped on this dog when he was sleeping (sometimes these kids are just too darn quick!), I have never had another incident with this dog. And my son got in trouble for jumping on the dog as he was old enough to know better by then!

[Fourjays]

Jesus H Christ!

Sorry, but this is terrible advice

I have 1 child and 4 dogs (and raised 19 puppies as well) in the course of his short 5 years of life.

NEVER in my life would I recommend this sort of training method

Dogs and kids are made to be together and as long as the dog understands that the child is a family member, more important than them, and that they have no right to discipline that child in anyway (which is really what a lot of dogs are doing with a young child, they treat them like they would a puppy), then there is no reason why you can't have your dog around your baby/in their room, in the house, growing up together. And I am sorry, but I would rather use positive training methods to help my dogs understand, than using adverse punishment methods to make my dog fearful - because a fearful dog is a danagerous dog!

I hope that the OP (and any other reader) doesn't take this advice seriously!

This problem can be easily avoided and should have never happened.

I have 4 children and have had 3 dogs over the course of their lives.

Your dog should not go near your baby ever not it's clothes cot nothing.

No method of positive training will do this effectively.

Edited January 27, 2011 by gspmadhouse

[Erny]

Crikey - I would never even lightly smack my pets/dogs - ever - and what the hell is a pronged collar? It sounds like something out of the Dark Ages

I agree with the comments here - cruelty is not the answer - nor ever - it's just "ruling through fear".

And are these things actually allowed by the RSPCA and/or legal???

I'll bet if it became common public knowledge the outcry would soon fix that.

Hi All Creatures.

Please don't judge a book by its cover (or in this case, by its name). The PPCollar (aka "pinch" or "prong" collar) is most likely not as you imagine it (although even on first glance it does look awful). In fact it is a training collar more kind than most of the others which are freely available and used more comfortably by most people. It is unfortunately banned for use in Victoria - the only place in the world where its use is banned. Even the Government who banned it here acknowledged in writing that there is no reported evidence of harm from the use of this collar. I very strongly suspect that it being banned relates more to political rather than practical reasoning.

And no - the RSPCA do not support the PPCollar. In fact it is the RSPCA who pushed for the ban. But this is another area that I believe the RSPCA are wrong in and did it for no reason other than to win browny points from the unknowing public. Otherwise, why would you push to ban something from whence there is no reported evidence of harm yet support something where there is sufficient at least anecdotal evidence of harm. This is what the RSPCA have done.

I definitely do NOT condone the earlier DOLer's advice to pair fear with the baby - regardless of which training collar one might use in the process. That was extremely poor and dangerous advice and something I hope that anyone reading here would wholeheartedly reject.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Erny

[m-j]

You need a prong collar and a long line lay your kids clothing on the floor and let the dog in as soon as it goes near the clothes give Extremely hard correction as hard as you can.

Repeat this until the dog will not go near them.

Your dog will learn that if he goes near the baby or anything that smell like the baby is a big no no.

This is what a proper trainer will do. Do not consult some positive reinforcement rubbish trainer.Do not attempt this with out a good trainers guidance it is only an idea of what works.

Wow, I guess I don't know any proper trainers, then, since I don't think I know any trainers who would advise that.

You probably don't.

What would your trainer advise distract the dog with a cookie When a dog does something it is not supposed to do a correction is needed pretty simple really.

I told the OP to get advise from a good trainer and not to attempt the above alone.

It was only given as an example of what has worked for me and to back it up I put in a link from the leerburg website that states something similar.

The method does work I have used it on all my dogs when I have had small children.

Time to start treating dogs like dogs people all this over complicating things is really a joke.

Dog training in the last 15 years has gone to pieces. My opinion is you can not train a dog properly without negative reinforcement.

If somebody has a different opinion they are welcome to it and I respect it.

In my experience the results from positive reinforcement training only may be similar but what happens if the distraction is greater then the food reward the whole process goes to pieces.

I am really getting sick of this site people ask for advise and then you get shot down with stupid comments.

If some body posted a positive only method of dealing with the problem I would not shoot the poster down with negative comments I would still offer my own advise and let the OP choose what type of trainer they would go to for help.

We are all different and we all have different methods of training the OP sounds smart enough to know to contact a professional.

I think she is only looking for differences of opinion not a problem solve over the internet.

*sigh* For all your years of apparent experience, to me it appears that you really don't understand the concept of positive reinforcement training.

Your advise with the right dog, in the right situation, is downright dangerous.

Edited January 27, 2011 by m-j