Labradoodle Pedgiree Or Not?

[WoofnHoof]

Ok I've forgotten, which are those breeds I'm supposed to be directing people who want a lab type dog that doesn't shed to?

Labradoodles are NOT Lab type dogs that don't shed!

Yep If you want a lab type dog that doesnt shed - its not in my opinion a labradoodle.

Not yet, but that's the ultimate goal as far as I can tell and that is what I'm talking about, whether it is currently available doesn't change the fact that that is what people want.

If there is a viable purebred option for people who want this type of dog then it should be being promoted, I'm not disputing that. What I am seeing is a lot of people whinging about the development of a new breed, getting confused about f1 crosses and not really offering up any solutions for people who want a dog like a lab but without the hair. I also don't see how that somehow means a 'generic blah dog'

[poodlefan]

Ok I've forgotten, which are those breeds I'm supposed to be directing people who want a lab type dog that doesn't shed to?

Labradoodles are NOT Lab type dogs that don't shed!

Yep If you want a lab type dog that doesnt shed - its not in my opinion a labradoodle.

Not yet, but that's the ultimate goal as far as I can tell and that is what I'm talking about, whether it is currently available doesn't change the fact that that is what people want.

If there is a viable purebred option for people who want this type of dog then it should be being promoted, I'm not disputing that. What I am seeing is a lot of people whinging about the development of a new breed, getting confused about f1 crosses and not really offering up any solutions for people who want a dog like a lab but without the hair. I also don't see how that somehow means a 'generic blah dog'

If its coat type people are after, they could simply get one of these:

No, its temperament is not just like a Labs. But it is a gundog and it is a retriever. Yes, its a minimal shedder but guess what - it doesn't need professional grooming... It's face, anus and feet will never be full with crap because someone can't be arsed getting it clipped more than once a year. Its coat will never mat either. How much more 'family friendly' is that?

And guess what - every 8 week old pup of this breed will grow into a predictable size, coat type and a far more predictable temperament.

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan

[Sheridan]

Not yet, but that's the ultimate goal as far as I can tell and that is what I'm talking about, whether it is currently available doesn't change the fact that that is what people want.

If there is a viable purebred option for people who want this type of dog then it should be being promoted, I'm not disputing that. What I am seeing is a lot of people whinging about the development of a new breed, getting confused about f1 crosses and not really offering up any solutions for people who want a dog like a lab but without the hair. I also don't see how that somehow means a 'generic blah dog'

There have been plenty of suggestions in this thread.

Generic blah dog: one where you take away what makes a breed. Oh, let's remove such and such breed's temperament because people want a dog that looks like that but don't want the temperament. Let's change coat colour because people want one that's another colour. Remove what makes a breed that breed then it's no longer that breed. That's what you're promoting.

[aussielover]

Ok I've forgotten, which are those breeds I'm supposed to be directing people who want a lab type dog that doesn't shed to?

Curly Coated Retriever

Portugese Water Dog

Lagotto

Standard Poodle

All gundogs and all low shedding.

My labrador has played with all these breeds quite happily, i think the temperament and play style is reasonably similar to a labrador. But if you want a labrador- type dog, get a lab!!!

[The Spotted Devil]

Actually, I think what has got lost in all this is that some people appear to want a non-shedding breed that doesn't require brushing, has all the cute qualities that a puppy comes with but knows everything a well-trained and exercised adult representative of the breed does without any effort on the part of the owner. Oh, and wants one next week with a perfect temperament and no health problems (ever) from a breeder who will bend over backwards to sell them one. Easy!

[WoofnHoof]

If its coat type people are after, they could simply get one of these:

No, its temperament is not just like a Labs. But it is a gundog and it is a retriever. Yes, its a minimal shedder but guess what - it doesn't need professional grooming... It's face, anus and feet will never be full with crap because someone can't be arsed getting it clipped more than once a year. Its coat will never mat either. How much more 'family friendly' is that?

And guess what - every 8 week old pup of this breed will grow into a predictable size, coat type and a far more predictable temperament.

Sounds like the closest thing we have So the next question is how many are there in Australia and how do we go about promoting them so they are the first choice for people who want this type of dog?

This is the point I'm trying to make, if there is a breed you think will fill the requirements that people have then get out there and make sure people know about it, at the moment only pure breed enthusiasts know anything about the range of breeds and how to get one, unless that changes people will go and buy labradoodles because they are the ones being promoted and are the easiest to find.

[WoofnHoof]

Actually, I think what has got lost in all this is that some people appear to want a non-shedding breed that doesn't require brushing, has all the cute qualities that a puppy comes with but knows everything a well-trained and exercised adult representative of the breed does without any effort on the part of the owner. Oh, and wants one next week with a perfect temperament and no health problems (ever) from a breeder who will bend over backwards to sell them one. Easy!

Some people, not all people. I think back to dogs we had as a kid, none went to obedience training I don't think they even knew how to sit! But they were good dogs, mostly outside dogs though so of course undesirable behaviours were less noticeable. What has changed? Well since I got a husky I've found that everyone notices dog hair (actually they usually think I have a cat lol!), I think that the hair thing has become one of the main things because of smaller yards so dogs are closer if not inside so hair is more noticeable. That's the main thing I've noticed that's significantly changed about dog ownership, yes there is less tolerance for normal behaviours but I guess that is also a byproduct of having dogs living closer with us too?

[poodlefan]

If its coat type people are after, they could simply get one of these:

No, its temperament is not just like a Labs. But it is a gundog and it is a retriever. Yes, its a minimal shedder but guess what - it doesn't need professional grooming... It's face, anus and feet will never be full with crap because someone can't be arsed getting it clipped more than once a year. Its coat will never mat either. How much more 'family friendly' is that?

And guess what - every 8 week old pup of this breed will grow into a predictable size, coat type and a far more predictable temperament.

Sounds like the closest thing we have So the next question is how many are there in Australia and how do we go about promoting them so they are the first choice for people who want this type of dog?

This is the point I'm trying to make, if there is a breed you think will fill the requirements that people have then get out there and make sure people know about it, at the moment only pure breed enthusiasts know anything about the range of breeds and how to get one, unless that changes people will go and buy labradoodles because they are the ones being promoted and are the easiest to find.

I suppose the threshold questions must be directed to breed enthusiasts..

Anyone with a basic knowledge of google could have those questions answered in 10 minutes. Given that many folk buy their DDs over the internet, its amazing that they don't do a bit more "breed research" before whipping out the credit card and filling their shopping cart with a pup.

Educating buyers is the first step for me. No point in promoting breeds to people who need to understand what they need to do to raise a pup and how to determine what breed is best for them.

There is no one size fits all families vanilla flavoured dog. Providing advice on how to find the right one would be more useful than telling people that X breed will suit them.

[The Spotted Devil]

Actually, I think what has got lost in all this is that some people appear to want a non-shedding breed that doesn't require brushing, has all the cute qualities that a puppy comes with but knows everything a well-trained and exercised adult representative of the breed does without any effort on the part of the owner. Oh, and wants one next week with a perfect temperament and no health problems (ever) from a breeder who will bend over backwards to sell them one. Easy!

Some people, not all people. I think back to dogs we had as a kid, none went to obedience training I don't think they even knew how to sit! But they were good dogs, mostly outside dogs though so of course undesirable behaviours were less noticeable. What has changed? Well since I got a husky I've found that everyone notices dog hair (actually they usually think I have a cat lol!), I think that the hair thing has become one of the main things because of smaller yards so dogs are closer if not inside so hair is more noticeable. That's the main thing I've noticed that's significantly changed about dog ownership, yes there is less tolerance for normal behaviours but I guess that is also a byproduct of having dogs living closer with us too?

I do understand that times have changed but we are not talking about a lap dog here - these dogs are gundogs - working dogs. Guide Dog Labs, show-line Labs and working-line Labs are worlds apart from each other in terms of energy and temperament but most of them go through a pretty active/destructive teen phase and some never grow out of it. That's why they make such great working dogs because they don't know the meaning of the word "tired". Not to mention that the failure rate for Guide Dogs is around 50%. The standard poodle was originally a gundog too. When I talked to the breeder of my field bred ESS she was honest about her energy levels - yes, she is a bit smaller, her coat is much shorter and more manageable, her temperament is sweet and biddable but her mental stimulation and exercise requirements are huge because she is bred to work.

There is sweeping/vacuuming daily OR you need to get off your butt and give these dogs something more than a walk around the block. I have to do both, sometimes several times a day Seriously, though, I think the expectations of people are completely unrealistic. All the people who ooh and aah over how well behaved my Dalmatian is (most of the time ) - I am so honest about the breed but it's really hard to make them understand that I have worked so damn hard with him, especially in the first few years. 5am starts (working 7 days a week for one 7 week period) just so he could have a gallop at the beach before I left the house is not for the faint hearted but I'm now reaping the rewards. A family member would love a pup sired by my Dally. He had a lovely Weim - would run it off lead inappropriately, didn't put the training in and it was hit by a car at a young age. He loved the dog but was very much "c'est la vie." Human nature means they want the easy way out - and a great breeder of great dogs (whether curly coat retriever, poodles or labs) is not going to give them one.

[WoofnHoof]

People don't search for obscure breeds they search for Labradoodles because they have been marketed as the ideal pet. A Google search for Labradoodles comes up with breeders and the ALA, no information about alternative breeds, so how do people even know there is a pure breed that might suit them? Why wouldn't they just go and get a labradoodle when they have been told that it's great? Car companies still pay for advertising even though all of the information is on google so clearly google is not the be all and end all of promotion.

[Crisovar]

Sometimes people have to realise that what they want is not what they should have.

All I can see is a society that expects their wants to become reality and are prepared to stamp their feet and toss a tantie if it isn't available or they are told no, just like a 2yo.

If you do not want to deal with dog hair in any manner don't get a dog, non shedding dogs are high maintenance and the majority I see get next to none at home. Dogs of any breed need training, if you don't want to train your dog and guide it through adolescence and wait till it is a stable steady companion, don't get a dog.

Dogs need exercise if you don't want to do that don't get a dog. It seems the only dog suitable to so many demands is robotic, now there's a thing.

Smaller house yards, busier lifestyles, less open space for exercise means that many cannot have their breed of choice and need to look down the chart a bit and maybe adjust their thinking rather than try and adjust the dogs.

[Miranda]

Miranda when ever if ever there is one single solitary word changed in any breed standard I will consider you have a legitimate argument.

The opportunity for me to explain what we will do any futher here on this fiorum has been taken from me.If I had the opportunity to be able to go into detail perhaps you would see your impressions are way off base and if you would like me to inform you privately Im happy to do so. Each time I see these kind of accusations made about me Im amazed that anyone could have read my posts all these years and believe I would be a party to any of the crap.

To register puppies on our registry is free - we only charge for certificate issues if they are needed so jibes about how the registry was started to make money and not because we felt it was the best thing for the purebred dog world is crap. Every single one of our breeder members are ANKC members and there has been no desire on our part or there's for them not to remain registered breeders with the ANKC. We hoped we could work with them and provide a supplimentary service and thank God some peopel have listened and gotten that.

Your assumptions on what its all about are way off track.

First of all, my apologies to all DOLers for again going OT, but I missed this post yesterday and therefore didn't reply to it.

Steve the wording on your website has since been changed (probably because of the outcry), but it originally stated that the MDBA would appoint five people (not necessarily breeders) from each individual breed, and those people would review the breed standard for their particular breed on a three yearly basis. Should those people decide that some parts of the standard should be changed, they would submit their recommendations to the MDBA and the board of directors plus various unnamed veterinarians and geneticists would then proceed to act on those recommendations should they decide that the changes to the breed standard would be in the best interests of the health and welfare of the breed. This statement is no longer on your website, but I'm sure I am not the only one who remembers reading it a few months ago.

Regarding the fees, no you do not charge to register individual puppies, but you do charge a flat fee of $30.00 per litter plus $4.00 for each individual MDBA pedigree certificate issued. You also charge $10 per dog to transfer a dog from an outside registry to the MDBA registry plus a $4.00 fee for a new MDBA pedigree. I am sure I am not out of order including these fees in this post as all fees are clearly stated on your website and accessible to all. There are also fees to register a prefix, renew a prefix, leases and so on, but I won't go into that. So even though I am sure that you have the best interests of the purebreed dog at heart, you are also making money out of the enterprise and as I said before there is nothing wrong with that as you are, after all, running a business and a business must make a profit to remain viable.

Anyway this is definitely my last word on the subject, once again I apologise for going off topic in this thread.

[Akayla]

The name will in my opinion always create this kind of argument and confusion. Some people in this thread are talking about a group of dogs where the breeders are breeding toward a breed recognition. If they were not then going to all the trouble of having a breed standard and trying to get to a place where they are breeding consistently predictible dogs would not be needed or possible. But others are talking about dogs which are cross bred dogs with thousands of possible combinations and potentials in phenotype and genotype in every litter.

Both are called labradoodles. If the breeders who are working toward one day having a consistent type capable of applying to a recognised registry for breed recognition

dont have the name trade marked - and they dont - then any body can call any dog a labradoodle and all it does is help legitimise the whole designer dog concept anyway.

Clearly some breeders have been able to work on developing new breeds [or all dogs would be the same] and most are able to be traced back to which breeds were in the foundations.When we look at the history of breed development and discuss current breed standards we talk of these breeders with respect and accept that when they designed their breeding programs, desired function and breed standards they knew what they were doing. Arguments here about specific breed standards have always been counteracted with how the breeders who were the foundation breeders did what they did with a specific purpose. Theoretically breeders who are working toward breed recognition in this century have a better shot at getting the thing right than any who have gone before if they use modern science and breeding protocols to select breeding stock based on things foundation breeders in the past couldnt utilise.

So I guess the question is - in the year 2011 will any breeders who are involved in any kind of breed development with the hope of eventual breed recognition be given such rough treatment and their dogs spoken of as mongrels or is this something which is specific to this particular breed in development because of its stupid name?

How do we feel about Mini foxies and the people who are working with that for example ? I believe the name is a bit of an issue for some there too.

What of the breeders working with American Bulldogs,Shilohs etc ? In some countries maremma Sheepdog are not recognised as a breed. Would I be seen as breeding mutts if I lived in these countries - even though the breed has been recognised as a breed by others for centuries?

Im actually a supporter of new breeds so agree with the idea of being open. I think its something people in the animal industries really need to put into practise.

I think its wonderful if someone steps up and acts responsibly in the interest of the breed.

However in the case of the labradoodle I have fears of whether its doable or not. Im sure they could eventuallu create a breed of dog they are happy with but the issues with the public and this dog in general are HUGE. Not just the name but even if they do create a reliable type how many other BYB will continue to just cross F1?

I do have issue with this breed because of the people it is marketed to. I will be contraversial here and say alot of them I would not sell one of my pups to and that is a strong reason why they choose BYBs. Some people are just new to dogs but there are thousands of people out there that see dogs as nothing but a disposable item. oodle X come into shelters terribly matted and in horrific conditions reguarly. Now if these new breeders manage to get it registered will they stress the dog ISNT infact for everyone? Will they risk a negative whiplash from the public when they state their breed does infact have issues?

I would not market my dogs the way they do with alot of Labradoodles. I dont want them all returned at 6 months!

To show I am genuine I will point out Im waiting (not very patiently) for a breed to be recognised here so I can get one and show it! I love the breed regardless of whether it is registered here or not! It too in controversial

Edited March 23, 2011 by Akayla

[Steve]

Actually, I think what has got lost in all this is that some people appear to want a non-shedding breed that doesn't require brushing, has all the cute qualities that a puppy comes with but knows everything a well-trained and exercised adult representative of the breed does without any effort on the part of the owner. Oh, and wants one next week with a perfect temperament and no health problems (ever) from a breeder who will bend over backwards to sell them one. Easy!

But dont most non shedding breeds require more rather than less grooming?

[The Spotted Devil]

Actually, I think what has got lost in all this is that some people appear to want a non-shedding breed that doesn't require brushing, has all the cute qualities that a puppy comes with but knows everything a well-trained and exercised adult representative of the breed does without any effort on the part of the owner. Oh, and wants one next week with a perfect temperament and no health problems (ever) from a breeder who will bend over backwards to sell them one. Easy!

But dont most non shedding breeds require more rather than less grooming?

Exactly! I guess that's my point about unrealistic expectations.

[perrin]

Actually, I think what has got lost in all this is that some people appear to want a non-shedding breed that doesn't require brushing, has all the cute qualities that a puppy comes with but knows everything a well-trained and exercised adult representative of the breed does without any effort on the part of the owner. Oh, and wants one next week with a perfect temperament and no health problems (ever) from a breeder who will bend over backwards to sell them one. Easy!

But dont most non shedding breeds require more rather than less grooming?

Exactly! I guess that's my point about unrealistic expectations.

Yes but does the average person realise this?

If you type non shedding dogs australia into Google the average person would find oodle after oodle. And the problem with purebred non shedding breeds other than poodles is that they are hard to come by. Not many breeders and not many litters.

In my opinion breeders of non shedding or low shedding breeds need to get together and market their breeds to the public.

Edited March 23, 2011 by perrin

[jackie_a1]

Perrin +1 then maybe the general public will have a better understanding. If oodles is the only thing being marketed to them then you cannot blame them for simply heading towards an oodle however I think if more pure breds were recognised for their non shedding ability the majority would still go for cross breeds simply because going through a registered breeder requires alot more effort than buying from a window

[Steve]

Miranda when ever if ever there is one single solitary word changed in any breed standard I will consider you have a legitimate argument.

The opportunity for me to explain what we will do any futher here on this fiorum has been taken from me.If I had the opportunity to be able to go into detail perhaps you would see your impressions are way off base and if you would like me to inform you privately Im happy to do so. Each time I see these kind of accusations made about me Im amazed that anyone could have read my posts all these years and believe I would be a party to any of the crap.

To register puppies on our registry is free - we only charge for certificate issues if they are needed so jibes about how the registry was started to make money and not because we felt it was the best thing for the purebred dog world is crap. Every single one of our breeder members are ANKC members and there has been no desire on our part or there's for them not to remain registered breeders with the ANKC. We hoped we could work with them and provide a supplimentary service and thank God some peopel have listened and gotten that.

Your assumptions on what its all about are way off track.

First of all, my apologies to all DOLers for again going OT, but I missed this post yesterday and therefore didn't reply to it.

Steve the wording on your website has since been changed (probably because of the outcry), but it originally stated that the MDBA would appoint five people (not necessarily breeders) from each individual breed, and those people would review the breed standard for their particular breed on a three yearly basis. Should those people decide that some parts of the standard should be changed, they would submit their recommendations to the MDBA and the board of directors plus various unnamed veterinarians and geneticists would then proceed to act on those recommendations should they decide that the changes to the breed standard would be in the best interests of the health and welfare of the breed. This statement is no longer on your website, but I'm sure I am not the only one who remembers reading it a few months ago.

Regarding the fees, no you do not charge to register individual puppies, but you do charge a flat fee of $30.00 per litter plus $4.00 for each individual MDBA pedigree certificate issued. You also charge $10 per dog to transfer a dog from an outside registry to the MDBA registry plus a $4.00 fee for a new MDBA pedigree. I am sure I am not out of order including these fees in this post as all fees are clearly stated on your website and accessible to all. There are also fees to register a prefix, renew a prefix, leases and so on, but I won't go into that. So even though I am sure that you have the best interests of the purebreed dog at heart, you are also making money out of the enterprise and as I said before there is nothing wrong with that as you are, after all, running a business and a business must make a profit to remain viable.

Anyway this is definitely my last word on the subject, once again I apologise for going off topic in this thread.

Miranda - I am more than happy to go through this with you privately - your assumptions are wrong.

[Sheridan]

Actually, I think what has got lost in all this is that some people appear to want a non-shedding breed that doesn't require brushing, has all the cute qualities that a puppy comes with but knows everything a well-trained and exercised adult representative of the breed does without any effort on the part of the owner. Oh, and wants one next week with a perfect temperament and no health problems (ever) from a breeder who will bend over backwards to sell them one. Easy!

But dont most non shedding breeds require more rather than less grooming?

Exactly! I guess that's my point about unrealistic expectations.

Yes but does the average person realise this?

If you type non shedding dogs australia into Google the average person would find oodle after oodle. And the problem with purebred non shedding breeds other than poodles is that they are hard to come by. Not many breeders and not many litters.

In my opinion breeders of non shedding or low shedding breeds need to get together and market their breeds to the public.

I'd rather not have my breeds in the hands of people who only want a non-shedder and don't think further than that.