Staffy - Looking For Advice (help)

[persephone]

The unhappiness of the current dog, should be enough on it's own.

.. and perhaps for a lot of people, it would be.

Some people though, need time to accept the idea of ending a dog's life - time to get used to the idea that a dog they love may have problems incompatible with a happy and stress free life ... problems with either health or temperament, depending on their situation

Some folks need the support/confirmation of a professional - be it vet or behaviourist, before they can make their decision.

I think this is a good thing - and should be encouraged.

[PetSitters]

Sounds like a nasty dog, sometimes you can't fix inherent behaviours. I would put to sleep. Far too many nice dogs out there dying in the pounds each day and I feel really sorry for your own dog, he certainly doesn't deserve to suffer in this way but nor does anyone else's dog or animal. I don't believe she can be fixed. Many DA staffy types around and highly risky to rehome and also, in my opinion, irresponsible.

How on earth can you possibly make an assessment like that on a dog you have never even seen?

ETA: I completely agree with those who have said they couldn't ethically rehome an aggressive dog. But whilst we can guess about the extent of this dog's behaviourial issues, none of us can know how bad it is without actually seeing the dog.

The cause of most aggressive "behavioural issues" are genetic, it's either in the dog or it isn't and although behaviour can be modified in training and management, genetics can't be fixed unfortunately.

[ruthless]

The unhappiness of the current dog, should be enough on it's own.

.. and perhaps for a lot of people, it would be.

Some people though, need time to accept the idea of ending a dog's life - time to get used to the idea that a dog they love may have problems incompatible with a happy and stress free life ... problems with either health or temperament, depending on their situation

Some folks need the support/confirmation of a professional - be it vet or behaviourist, before they can make their decision.

I think this is a good thing - and should be encouraged.

I agree.

Best of luck Mike

[budgiew]

Its easier for others to say PTS,as i did earlier.Its not so if you have the dog in your home and have formed an attachment to it.Also children in the home may be upset and not understand why the dog had to go.A relative of mine took on a dog that had been taken to the vet where she worked for PTS because he had bitten a few people.This was some years ago. She did not have children or another dog. The dog was kept very secure and when we visited she would bolt the door so nobody could wander out the back near the dog. She loved the dog and said she felt secure as she had been burgled in the past.She was experienced with dogs and this arrangement suited her life.Its a good idea to get assessment anyway to know you did the best thing.

[Greytmate]

Its easier for others to say PTS,as i did earlier.Its not so if you have the dog in your home and have formed an attachment to it.Also children in the home may be upset and not understand why the dog had to go.

What makes you think that any of the people saying put to sleep have not been in a situation where they had to put to sleep a dog that they had become very attached to?

It's up to adults to deal with their children, and not make bad decisions because they want to please their child.

A relative of mine took on a dog that had been taken to the vet where she worked for PTS because he had bitten a few people.This was some years ago. She did not have children or another dog. The dog was kept very secure and when we visited she would bolt the door so nobody could wander out the back near the dog. She loved the dog and said she felt secure as she had been burgled in the past.She was experienced with dogs and this arrangement suited her life.Its a good idea to get assessment anyway to know you did the best thing.

If an owner has signed a form to put a dog to sleep for aggression, only an unethical vet would rehome that dog. Your relative may have enjoyed the security of living with a dangerous dog, having had a traumatising experience, but most people are not like that and don't want to have to live that way with a pet dog.

A big lesson in this thread is to be very careful when taking on adult dogs. If somebody does want to give a good home to a dog there are ethical organisations rehoming dogs that thoroughly test out the dogs before rehoming them. This is to avoid the risk of having these type of dogs out in the community and the risk of heartbreak for new owners.

There are so many dogs with wonderful temperaments looking for homes, dogs that will allow their owners to live a normal life and will bring happiness. Aggressive dogs are a burden that should not be passed on to other people.

[budgiew]

Its easier for others to say PTS,as i did earlier.Its not so if you have the dog in your home and have formed an attachment to it.Also children in the home may be upset and not understand why the dog had to go.

What makes you think that any of the people saying put to sleep have not been in a situation where they had to put to sleep a dog that they had become very attached to?

It's up to adults to deal with their children, and not make bad decisions because they want to please their child.

A relative of mine took on a dog that had been taken to the vet where she worked for PTS because he had bitten a few people.This was some years ago. She did not have children or another dog. The dog was kept very secure and when we visited she would bolt the door so nobody could wander out the back near the dog. She loved the dog and said she felt secure as she had been burgled in the past.She was experienced with dogs and this arrangement suited her life.Its a good idea to get assessment anyway to know you did the best thing.

If an owner has signed a form to put a dog to sleep for aggression, only an unethical vet would rehome that dog. Your relative may have enjoyed the security of living with a dangerous dog, having had a traumatising experience, but most people are not like that and don't want to have to live that way with a pet dog.

A big lesson in this thread is to be very careful when taking on adult dogs. If somebody does want to give a good home to a dog there are ethical organisations rehoming dogs that thoroughly test out the dogs before rehoming them. This is to avoid the risk of having these type of dogs out in the community and the risk of heartbreak for new owners.

There are so many dogs with wonderful temperaments looking for homes, dogs that will allow their owners to live a normal life and will bring happiness. Aggressive dogs are a burden that should not be passed on to other people.

Greytmate,I was just saying it's not an easy thing to have to do .I am sure others have had to do the same thing.We had to rehome a dog once on advise from a dog trainer because she was not good around children.She went to an adult home with people that were better able than i was to train a dominant dog.As it happened she was a staffy x. .My children were upset at first but they got over it.We later got a rescue dog that was good with the children and was a good family pet for 10 years.As i said in my first post;if i was in this situation i would PTS;I was going to do the same with our staffy if i could not find a resposable home for her.She was not DA but not good with children.So please do not make assumptions like that .I was just saying its hard to just say ok i will just go off now and get the dog PTS. You need time to get your head around it.I stalled for 3 weeks about whether i should take my staffy x to get the needle.As it happened some friends of a friend called me and offered to take the dog.as they did not have children and were resposible people; i let them take the dog.She was fine with adults and other dogs. She just wanted to be boss with the kids and they were getting scared of her.It was not a case of passing on a dangerous dog. I would have PTS a dog that i thought was a risk to anyone. I have been on this earth long enough to see a lot of things.I do not assume people do not have feelings.As for the vet situation.It was around 35 years ago;and laws and things were a lot different back then.It was up to my relo to take on that dog; me and the rest of the family said she was mad,but that was her choice. If you read my first post you will see i already said the same thing as you about there being good dogs out there that need a home;rather than take on one that is such a worry.And i have had to have some of my pets PTS when they had cancer,and i was holding them when it was done.So don't make such unkind comments.

Edited June 21, 2011 by budgiew

[dee lee]

Whilst I agree that the happiness of the current dog should be a priority I completely disagree that this alone is grounds for PTS. Have the dog assessed and see if it would be suitable for a home in which it is the only dog with some rehabilitation. When you take on a dog you have an obligation to do the best you can by that dog, even if it's not suitable for your own home. If the outcome of an assessment is that the dog is too DA to rehabilitate for rehoming in a suitable time frame then PTS becomes an option. I'd hate to see everyone PTS dogs they bring in to their home that don't suit their existing dog.

In theory I agree, but from bitter experience, it is very difficult to rehome a dog with DA.

I was unable to find any rescue organisation willing to take my dog on and was not prepared to risk rehoming her myself. In my situation, I chose euthanasia and stayed with my dog til the end. It was the hardest thing I have ever had to do but I felt I had no choice.

The biggest problem with a DA dog, as others have said, is the management and eternal vigilance. Add children and inconsistent/weak training to the mix and its a very very difficult life for all concerned. Essentially your whole life revolves around the dog and not in a positive way. It is a life of tension and worry.

Like StarAnais said, once you have had a DA dog, there is no way you want another.

Mick, please be realistic in the very beginning and don't be swayed by feelings of guilt if you do feel that your new dog cannot stay. You have a lot to lose.

I worked with my dog for 2 years before the situation became so untenable and I was forced to make the hard decision. I wish I had faced facts earlier, I may have been able to prevent my daughter becoming so traumatised and saved my family a lot of heartache.

Good luck, I am sure Cosmolo (Underdog) can guide you in the right direction.

[megan_]

Great post dee_lee. Adding to the mix is that the vast majority of dog owners don't have a clue and even if you manage your dog and only take it for walks on leash etc, you will often encounter off leash dogs. If you politely ask people to keep their dog away, they more often than not ignore you or have no control over their dog. Something as simple as going for a walk becomes a stressful, risky experience.

I am no expert on dog behaviour, but I don't believe that many dogs can actually be truely rehabilitated (ie never having to worry about DA again). It is easy to say that the dog's behaviour should be managed, but it is a very hard (and often impossible) thing to do.

ETA: We have responsbility to our dogs, but also to the community, our families and other pets.

Edited June 15, 2011 by megan_

[RallyValley]

I lived in a situation where the dogs in my house didn't get on. One of the dogs ended up going back to the breeders, the Kelpie x that stayed with me has been having rehabilitation for the last 6 months to correct all the issues living in constant fear and being bullied caused.

I cannot tell you how awful it will be if things escalate between Astro and the new dog, I have physical scars from breaking up fights. My mum who I live with has become quite scared when she sees two dogs playing togther, even nicely, because of it all. If you want to keep the new girl you must be prepared to have the dogs live seprately, behaviourists and rehabilition for both dogs ongoing, possibly for thier whole lives - kind of takes the joy out of dog ownership.

[poodlefan]

I am no expert on dog behaviour, but I don't believe that many dogs can actually be truely rehabilitated (ie never having to worry about DA again).

Quite a few experts on dog behaviour agree with you. They believe (and I agree) that you don't "cure" aggression. Rehabilitation focuses on desensitising the dog to triggers and raising trigger points to aggression but the issues are still there.

Given that there are two dogs in this home, not one, that complicates the issue further.

The other worry is what Astro is learning from this situation. Aggression can be both genetic AND learned behaviour. What is learned in that context can be very challenging to "unlearn".

Edited June 15, 2011 by poodlefan

[WreckitWhippet]

PF has touched on something regarding what Astro is learning from this and the potential this has to impact on his temperament in a negative way.

Astro looks by all accounts to be a pretty stable and non reactive dog, any Stafford owner who is fortunate enough to have such an animal ( and there are a few of them around ) should absolutely cherish and be thankfull for what they have. Exposing him to aggressive and bullying behaviour from another dog, could well see him cease being the easy going, laid back guy with manners that he is.

Astro's best bet would be as the role model for a young puppy. If you've got one laid back, happy Stafford, there's every chance that you can raise another and another.

[meggie]

I haven't read all the posts, but wanted to add my bit since I have been in a (sort of) similar situation. You have my sympathy.

We have a older, friendly, placid Stafford who didn't cope at all well when my old rescue girl (our 3rd Stafford) went, so we decided to try another rescue Stafford.

Not quite like Missy - she was a nice well mannered girl fostered in a family with kids & another dog. Meet & greets went well. When she settled here, she decided she'd be boss. Big fight. I had 8 stitches in my hand, my boy was at the vet. It wasn't fair to him. She went straight back. We settled on a whippet instead & they are happy together.

My point is that your first responsibility is to Astro & your family. I wouldn't have an aggressive dog round kids & she's shown that aggression quite clearly. Too risky.

I agree with ReadySetGo that 'Astro's best bet would be as the role model for a young puppy. If you've got one laid back, happy Stafford, there's every chance that you can raise another and another. '

[Guest Willow]

Hi all,

I rang underdog training. I have left a message as the are overseas, back today. I'm trying to get something underway asap. I'll come back post the review from these folks.Thanks again, the comments from everyone have given me great advice and increased my knowledge. I just wish I got another puppy and Astro could have been a mentor of sorts.

That said I'm in this spot and I'll try to best to get this sorted.

Mike

Mr & Mrs Cosmolo (Underdog Training) might be a bit stuck because of the delayed flights in and out of Melbourne....I have heard mention that they have been stuck where they are, so don't think badly of them if they can't get back to you straight away....they're pretty frustrated about the ash cloud!!!!

[Aussienot]

Ask the behavourist you see to give you an unbiased assessment of your chances of 'managing' Missy's aggressive responses. Even with training and behavoural modification it will be a situation you manage, not one that will disappear. You will not have a house with two dogs, you will have one house for each dog. You will separate and try to find time to deal with each dog indivually. It can be done, but there's no room for error, which makes it stressful for you.

There is probably not a 'happily every after' for the two dogs. If you got Missy as a playmate for Astro, you might have to rethink that idea. I've not a fan of getting your dog a dog, if you know what I mean. Getting yourself a second dog because you want another one is a different scenario.

Finding her a home where she will be the only dog is not a real solution either. She will encounter other dogs anytime you take her out of the backyard. Unless you can guarantee that she will never escape, and you can find a way to give her exersize and an enriched life in her backyard, the only dog solution fails.

[Animal House]

Just wanted to say please be very careful if anyone (friend of a friend, neighbour, stranger, whoever) says they will take the dog on, as they could be wanting a dog for fighting (yes, it still goes on) or for backyard breeding, as she hasn't been desexed (yet).

Backyard breeders don't care about the dogs temperament (eg that she attacks others) because they are only interested in the money they could make from pups.

[persephone]

Good news!

I rang underdog training. I have left a message as the are overseas, back today. I'm trying to get something underway asap. I'll come back post the review from these folks.

[ruthless]

You will not have a house with two dogs, you will have one house for each dog.

I agree that they should be kept separate when unsupervised, but if Mike can assert himself as their leader it's possible they can coexist in peace when he's home. IMO.

[Gammalite]

my ears are burning ....

if you need to email me go for it [email protected], we can see what we can work out. She may need putting in place or she may just be set in her ways, either way its not something someone can see over the internet.

Saying that I will not advocate rehoming a dog that fights others and has killed another creature.

Im so sorry I missed the note and apologies for not calling you. I managed to call underdog, and scheduled a call (wrote both numbers down and calls the first one I wrote down . I will get back to you should my situation changes. Appreciate your offer.

Mike

[Eileen]

You will not have a house with two dogs, you will have one house for each dog.

I agree that they should be kept separate when unsupervised, but if Mike can assert himself as their leader it's possible they can coexist in peace when he's home. IMO.

If you're any example, then that's definitely true. Your three are great together!

[Skye GSD]

Hi Gammalite,

Any news on your front - have thought about you often and wondered how you are getting on??