Zug Zug Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) I am looking for a puppy at the moment, since my old boy died a bit over a month ago. I have been finding the process of searching a little stressful actually. I am really wanting to do the right thing - but in the past have always chosen with my heart (so much easier!). I am talking to a breeder about a pup who sounds really lovely. I have met and really liked a close relative of this pup. I am considering a long drive to meet the two parents and the pup next week. But I am not sure about the hip scores. The father had great scores - total 3. The mother however had a total of 16, so not so great. The breeder said to me that the intention is that by putting the two of them together, the pups will have good hips. I am not sure if that logic holds true, and I'm hoping someone could shed some light on this question for me please? It is a large breed. Larger than most agility dogs. I want to do obedience, and also some agility. So from my perspective the hips will be an important consideration, although of course not the only consideration (for me, a sound temperament and suitability as a pet will definitely come first). Edited July 29, 2011 by Zug Zug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I'm a bit fuzzy on it but it might be 50/50 depending on how the grandparents scored. Ie if the good scoring dog had one bad scoring parent and the bad scoring parent had both bad scoring parents - then the chance of any given puppy having good hip score is more like 1 in 4. It's not like genetics "average out". I had no clue about my dog's parents and I don't know her hip score either. So far no sign of lameness and I hope she stays that way - or we might have to take up tracking... We might try that anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 How were the dams littermates scored? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 I don't know but I do know that a litter mate trials at 6yo in obedience still. But to be honest you could still do that with less than ideal hips. I might ask what the breeder knows about the dam's siblings and grandparents. Would dogs/bitches that aren't used for breeding even be scored? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Would dogs/bitches that aren't used for breeding even be scored Maybe - maybe that's why they're not used for breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 The chances are they haven't been Zug Zug unless littermates have been placed into show homes or there has been a need to. Although I know some dog sports people will xray as a matter of course. I can think of a few breeders I have seen will place into their contracts that dogs are to be xrayed at the appropriate age and so they are therefore scoring the majority of a litter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 But I am not sure about the hip scores. The father had great scores - total 3. The mother however had a total of 16, so not so great. The breeder said to me that the intention is that by putting the two of them together, the pups will have good hips. Do you know what the maximum scores are allowed to be for the breed? For me 16 is way too high as a parent of an agility/obedience dog especially of a larger breed IMO, I know hips are a combination of genetics and environment but I personally would be looking at another litter unless the pup is perfect in every other way and then if you are willing to take the risk........though this is coming from someone who's breed average is about 11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 My first toller her mums hips were 14 and dads were 6, so I decided to get her hip scored at an early age (14 months) because if they were high I was going to get her steralised. She came in at 2,2 = 4. Toller number 4 for me - mum was 0,0 dad was OFA graded good she came in at 21 her brothers have been scored at 7 and 6 and her other sister was graded good with the OFA (in the US) You can get a pup penn hip scored at 16 weeks, but I don't know enough about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 What breed are we talking about? Bear in mind that in agility its the FRONT of the dog that takes most of the load. Landing is a lot harder on a dog structually than taking off over jumps. If this is a large breed, I'd be checking elbows too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted July 30, 2011 Author Share Posted July 30, 2011 Thanks very much for all your posts. No wonder I am confused - it really is a bit of a lottery. Breed I am considering is a Standard poodle. Breed average 15 for hips I think? I didn't ask about elbows but will do now. And also size (height/weight of parents). Some are light and sprightly, some are quite heavy. I prefer them light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlot Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Thanks very much for all your posts. No wonder I am confused - it really is a bit of a lottery.Breed I am considering is a Standard poodle. Breed average 15 for hips I think?I didn't ask about elbows but will do now. And also size (height/weight of parents). Some are light and sprightly, some are quite heavy. I prefer them light. if breed average is 15... 16 is not much above that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
**Super_Dogs** Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 What is the score of each hip? The reason I ask is an even score is alot better. For example a 10:4 is not a good thing. Each hip should be close to even. If they are, as Shelot said, it is only 1 over the average. It is generally recommended to breed with dogs below the breed average, but this is so close. However I would definetly be looking at the elbow scores. I know with labs it is more likely elbows are going to cause issues than hips. The last thing you need to consider is hip/elbow scores are no guarantee. You can have a dog from great stock but can still have issues caused by the environment, for example over feeding and over excercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Buddy is right, an uneven hiip score is undesirable, although can occur for injury. Personally I would not breed a dog with an average or above hip score for the breed, nor would I purchase a large breed well known for HD as an agility dog from a bitch or dog that had above average scores. Breeding to a male with low hip scores is not neccessarily going to "cancel out" the mums score as the genetics of HD is not really well understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capanash Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 (edited) Last time we had hip scores done (we have Std Poodles) breed average was about 12. I think it has dropped to about 11 now, but would have to ask our Vet. We also have PennHip evaluation done, which is meant to be a better assessment. Also agree with buddy1, don't just look at the total score. AVA scoring can be influenced by the age a dog is X-rayed. Make sure that the breeder does other health tests, not just hips. Edited July 30, 2011 by capanash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
**Super_Dogs** Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Last time we had hip scores done (we have Std Poodles) breed average was about 12. I think it has dropped to about 11 now, but would have to ask our Vet. We also have PennHip evaluation done, which is meant to be a better assessment. Also agree with buddy1, don't just look at the total score. AVA scoring can be influenced by the age a dog is X-rayed. Make sure that the breeder does other health tests, not just hips. If the breed average is 11 or 12 - I would say 16 is too high! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted July 30, 2011 Author Share Posted July 30, 2011 Thanks so much everyone for your posts! I have learnt a lot from the information you have offered me. I slept on it and then contacted the breeder this morning to say thanks so much for her honest and open answering of my questions. If I were getting a pup as a pet only these hip scores would not bother me in the least. But with agility in our future (I hope) I have decided to be cautious and wait. I didn't end up asking about elbows etc. I had enough doubts that I thought I really shouldn't be wasting this person's time with more questions. She was lovely and her pup sounds gorgeous - I am sure he'll find a nice home very soon and that person will be very lucky to have him. I know there are no guarantees in terms of health for pups. I guess all I am trying to do is improve my odds of things going well. But I have to say I've never spent so much time worrying about this'n'that when looking for a pup before. I am so much more aware of health issues now than I was 12-13 years ago when I got my last two dogs. There will come a point when I just need to say 'well, it's time to take a risk' and just go for it. So far I've made enquiries about a few litter and in each case there has been something not quite right. I hope I am not being unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Zug Zug you could probably head straight for breeders with experience in SP's for performance. I'm sure Standard Poodle owners here could advise but two breeders that come to mind are Gidday (Victoria) and Kellyvix (NSW) I'd not call an SP an unusual agility dog - there are a few around and while they may be taller than some dogs, they are pretty lightweight for their size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted July 30, 2011 Author Share Posted July 30, 2011 (edited) Thanks poodlefan! Yes in addition to the low allergy coat (which is essential for me) it is both their intelligence and sprightliness that attracts me to poodles, to a large degree. I really admire all that athleticism - true of all the sizes I think. There are some standards that are a bit on the heavy side and I don't like them quite as much. I have spoken with Linda at Giday once before (a few years back) and she gave me some great training tips and advice. I have never asked her about structural issues and that's a really good idea I might just do that. I also didn't realise that Kellyvix did performance as well. Another website for me to go and discover! {Oops - correction - no website but definitely something to think about.} Edited July 30, 2011 by Zug Zug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
**Super_Dogs** Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Sounds like you make the right decision. I say if is doubt - don't. The good things is now you know more so you will know what questions to ask the next breeder! Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I also didn't realise that Kellyvix did performance as well. Another website for me to go and discover! {Oops - correction - no website but definitely something to think about.} Kellyvix is Margaret Forde - very successful obedience competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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