Child Killed By Dog

[RallyValley]

No use arguing with you. You're obviously a pitbull fanboy and will not see anyone else's side of the story no matter how futile your argument is. I'm off for lunch.

Actually I'm a poodle and whippet owning female who's never owned and will never own an APBT and I live in one of the only places in Australia where it is still legal to own one.

Matthew, you show me ONE place anywhere in the world where banning breeds has lead to a decrease in dog fatalities. I can tell you now that you won't find one. How is that a "futile" argument?

Breed bans don't work. There are no simple solutions to the questions of what makes dangerous dogs. Until we as humans accept our responsiblity for creating such animals, children will continue to die.

It's quite simple, even you should be able to understand it. Ban the breed and it ceases to be around to kill or maim people. Yes, the dog was bred to fight other dogs, but in the absence of another dog, it'll attack anything that moves if it's in the frame of mind to do some damage. Your argument is as dumb as that regarding guns. "Guns don't kill people, people do". Take the gun out of the equation and there'd be a massive drop in the homicide rate. Same thing applies to this vicious breed. Take it out and there won't be any pitbulls to attack people.

Matthew, drugs are banned but people still take them? Police actively try to track down the people producing these drugs and still people die from Overdoses and side effects. Banning something does not mean it stops, it means the deceptions and black markets start forming. These things become more glamorous to have for people who like to flaunt the law, they are getting it for an accessory, just like people got small purse dogs for accessories ala Paris Hilton when it was the trend. Only the consequence is that these fad owners don't get the dog for a dog and don't know how to raise the dog correctly and the consequences are awful. It's like giving an unltrained driver a V8 and them showing off on the road in it... potential for disaster.

[Sandra777]

It's quite simple, even you should be able to understand it. Ban the breed and it ceases to be around to kill or maim people.

Just curious - what breed do you own?

[Matthew_B]

No use arguing with you. You're obviously a pitbull fanboy and will not see anyone else's side of the story no matter how futile your argument is. I'm off for lunch.

Actually I'm a poodle and whippet owning female who's never owned and will never own an APBT and I live in one of the only places in Australia where it is still legal to own one.

Matthew, you show me ONE place anywhere in the world where banning breeds has lead to a decrease in dog fatalities. I can tell you now that you won't find one. How is that a "futile" argument?

Breed bans don't work. There are no simple solutions to the questions of what makes dangerous dogs. Until we as humans accept our responsiblity for creating such animals, children will continue to die.

It's quite simple, even you should be able to understand it. Ban the breed and it ceases to be around to kill or maim people. Yes, the dog was bred to fight other dogs, but in the absence of another dog, it'll attack anything that moves if it's in the frame of mind to do some damage. Your argument is as dumb as that regarding guns. "Guns don't kill people, people do". Take the gun out of the equation and there'd be a massive drop in the homicide rate. Same thing applies to this vicious breed. Take it out and there won't be any pitbulls to attack people.

Matthew, drugs are banned but people still take them? Police actively try to track down the people producing these drugs and still people die from Overdoses and side effects. Banning something does not mean it stops, it means the deceptions and black markets start forming. These things become more glamorous to have for people who like to flaunt the law, they are getting it for an accessory, just like people got small purse dogs for accessories ala Paris Hilton when it was the trend. Only the consequence is that these fad owners don't get the dog for a dog and don't know how to raise the dog correctly and the consequences are awful. It's like giving an unltrained driver a V8 and them showing off on the road in it... potential for disaster.

True on illegal drugs. But consider this. You get attacked by a dog which has been banned. Chances are that the owner will face much harsher punishment for owning a banned dog that attacked you than if the dog was not banned. Having the breed banned would hopefully make people think twice about "underground breeding" of these dogs in case the mentioned scenario eventuated. People would hopefully not think it is worthwhile to risk such a harsh penalty just for the sake of a dog.

[Keira&Phoenix]

No use arguing with you. You're obviously a pitbull fanboy and will not see anyone else's side of the story no matter how futile your argument is. I'm off for lunch.

Actually I'm a poodle and whippet owning female who's never owned and will never own an APBT and I live in one of the only places in Australia where it is still legal to own one.

Matthew, you show me ONE place anywhere in the world where banning breeds has lead to a decrease in dog fatalities. I can tell you now that you won't find one. How is that a "futile" argument?

Breed bans don't work. There are no simple solutions to the questions of what makes dangerous dogs. Until we as humans accept our responsiblity for creating such animals, children will continue to die.

It's quite simple, even you should be able to understand it. Ban the breed and it ceases to be around to kill or maim people. Yes, the dog was bred to fight other dogs, but in the absence of another dog, it'll attack anything that moves if it's in the frame of mind to do some damage. Your argument is as dumb as that regarding guns. "Guns don't kill people, people do". Take the gun out of the equation and there'd be a massive drop in the homicide rate. Same thing applies to this vicious breed. Take it out and there won't be any pitbulls to attack people.

Post edited to correct typo...

No Matthew what is quite simple is that if Pitbulls and Pitbull type dogs are wiped out of existence then the idiot owners who own dogs as status symbols and whose dogs are involved in attacks would move onto a different breed lets say Dobermans or Rotties or German Shepherds and guess what the same thing will happen. How many breeds of dog would you wipe off the planet before you got it into your head that its not the breed but the owner?

Matthew the bolded part is just the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a long time, its in the same category as locking jaws, just plain stupid.

Thank you Poodlefan for being a voice of reason. I applaud and agree with everything you have said in this thread.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[poodlefan]

MathewB

It's quite simple, even you should be able to understand it. Ban the breed and it ceases to be around to kill or maim people. Yes, the dog was bred to fight other dogs, but in the absence of another dog, it'll attack anything that moves if it's in the frame of mind to do some damage. Your argument is as dumb as that regarding guns. "Guns don't kill people, people do". Take the gun out of the equation and there'd be a massive drop in the homicide rate. Same thing applies to this vicious breed. Take it out and there won't be any pitbulls to attack people.

You honestly think banning guns has made Australia safe from gun related violence?

And banning alcohol in the 20's made Americans stop drinking.

Tell you what Matthew, if you can stop needling me with personal insults long enough to go do a bit of research, come up with an example of where prohibition ALONE has resulted in the end of a practice and I'll start paying heed to your argument.

You get attacked by a dog which has been banned. Chances are that the owner will face much harsher punishment for owning a banned dog that attacked you than if the dog was not banned.

If I get attacked by a dog that's been banned I'll be happy that the owner gets charged... is that your argument for the effectiveness of breed bans?? Riiiight. Its been illegal to breed pitbulls in most Australian states for years... you think its working or making us safer?

A banned dog cannot be socialised, cannot be taken to dog training, cannot be walked.. yep, a good recipe for a well adjusted canine citizen that one.

In the meantime, be thankful I'm not reporting your petty pot shots at me. I prefer to see them here so people can judge your attitude for themselves.

And as for pitbulls "attacking anything" - just laughable really. :rolleyes:

Edited August 18, 2011 by poodlefan

[Matthew_B]

It's quite simple, even you should be able to understand it. Ban the breed and it ceases to be around to kill or maim people.

Just curious - what breed do you own?

A two year old Labrador Retriever (yellow/golden) purebred.

[Bindo]

Does anyone know if there is an increase in the numbers of humans killed or seriously injured by dogs?

My perception is that the issue is ocurring with more frequency, but this may not be the reality.

I can tell you for a fact that it pales into insignificance compared with deaths and injuries caused by bicycles.

Lets ban those too shall we? ;)

Gee, great analogy! Difference is, most bicycles kill their owners (ie the rider), not other people.

For the record, I don't agree with banning a breed either as the dickhead owners (who are the fault) will just move onto another breed. However, if the responsible owners here are to save their breed, they need to recognise there is a problem with ownership, get better spokespeople in the media and work with authorities to find a solution, not get on the defensive every time there is an attack.

[RallyValley]

No use arguing with you. You're obviously a pitbull fanboy and will not see anyone else's side of the story no matter how futile your argument is. I'm off for lunch.

Actually I'm a poodle and whippet owning female who's never owned and will never own an APBT and I live in one of the only places in Australia where it is still legal to own one.

Matthew, you show me ONE place anywhere in the world where banning breeds has lead to a decrease in dog fatalities. I can tell you now that you won't find one. How is that a "futile" argument?

Breed bans don't work. There are no simple solutions to the questions of what makes dangerous dogs. Until we as humans accept our responsiblity for creating such animals, children will continue to die.

It's quite simple, even you should be able to understand it. Ban the breed and it ceases to be around to kill or maim people. Yes, the dog was bred to fight other dogs, but in the absence of another dog, it'll attack anything that moves if it's in the frame of mind to do some damage. Your argument is as dumb as that regarding guns. "Guns don't kill people, people do". Take the gun out of the equation and there'd be a massive drop in the homicide rate. Same thing applies to this vicious breed. Take it out and there won't be any pitbulls to attack people.

Matthew, drugs are banned but people still take them? Police actively try to track down the people producing these drugs and still people die from Overdoses and side effects. Banning something does not mean it stops, it means the deceptions and black markets start forming. These things become more glamorous to have for people who like to flaunt the law, they are getting it for an accessory, just like people got small purse dogs for accessories ala Paris Hilton when it was the trend. Only the consequence is that these fad owners don't get the dog for a dog and don't know how to raise the dog correctly and the consequences are awful. It's like giving an unltrained driver a V8 and them showing off on the road in it... potential for disaster.

True on illegal drugs. But consider this. You get attacked by a dog which has been banned. Chances are that the owner will face much harsher punishment for owning a banned dog that attacked you than if the dog was not banned. Having the breed banned would hopefully make people think twice about "underground breeding" of these dogs in case the mentioned scenario eventuated. People would hopefully not think it is worthwhile to risk such a harsh penalty just for the sake of a dog.

I really don't think so, as far as I am aware it already illegal to breed Restricted Breeds, yet there is a never-ending population of them.

Consider this.

You get severely mauled and lose the use of an arm due to an attack by a *insert non banned breed here*, you have a long hospital stay and many months of rehab - the owner gets fined $2000 and the dog is PTS. The person who owned the dog goes out the next week and gets a dog of the same breed and raises it just as poorly as the first.

Your friend gets a bite from a banned breed, he just has a puncture wound that does not require stitches or medical attention bar a prescription of antibiotics - the owner gets sent to prison for 5 years for owning a banned breed involved in an attack and the dog is PTS. They are also banned for owning dogs for life.

So in answer to your question I would like to see tough penalties relevant to the severity and the situation, regardless of breed, it should be based on the owner and the deed. I would be hugely peed off to be told 'well the person only gets a fine, their dog isn't a banned breed'.

[RallyValley]

It's quite simple, even you should be able to understand it. Ban the breed and it ceases to be around to kill or maim people. Yes, the dog was bred to fight other dogs, but in the absence of another dog, it'll attack anything that moves if it's in the frame of mind to do some damage. Your argument is as dumb as that regarding guns. "Guns don't kill people, people do". Take the gun out of the equation and there'd be a massive drop in the homicide rate. Same thing applies to this vicious breed. Take it out and there won't be any pitbulls to attack people.

You honestly think banning guns has made Australia safe from gun related violence?

And banning alcohol in the 20's made Americans stop drinking.

Tell you what Matthew, if you can stop needling me with personal insults long enough to go do a bit of research, come up with an example of where prohibition ALONE has resulted in the end of a practice and I'll start paying heed to your argument.

Just to be clear that is NOT my quote! It belongs to Matthew_B

[poodlefan]

Just to be clear that is NOT my quote! It belongs to Matthew_B

Fixed.

[RallyValley]

Just to be clear that is NOT my quote! It belongs to Matthew_B

Fixed.

Thanks PF! I was wondering if I would get some interesting PM's if that was left in my name

[poodlefan]

Just to be clear that is NOT my quote! It belongs to Matthew_B

Fixed.

Thanks PF! I was wondering if I would get some interesting PM's if that was left in my name

Doubt it.. in these discussions I seem to be on the receiving end of those. ;)

[Sandra777]

It's quite simple, even you should be able to understand it. Ban the breed and it ceases to be around to kill or maim people.

Just curious - what breed do you own?

A two year old Labrador Retriever (yellow/golden) purebred.

Uh Huh.

The only dog which has ever bitten me on purpose was a Labrador. Ban the lot I say.

[poodlefan]

I"ll be very interested to see if and how the RSPCA weigh in to this debate.

While the Victorian Pres is rabidly anti APBT, that is not the attitude of the National Pres, nor of a number of other State/Territory CEOs.

[RottnBullies]

For the record, I don't agree with banning a breed either as the dickhead owners (who are the fault) will just move onto another breed. However, if the responsible owners here are to save their breed, they need to recognise there is a problem with ownership, get better spokespeople in the media and work with authorities to find a solution, not get on the defensive every time there is an attack.

I think you'll find the Pit folks have been quite reasonably In this debate, however much can be said for the other party Including throwing Insults.

Mathew B could you please answer the previous question asked

[BJean]

For the record, I don't agree with banning a breed either as the dickhead owners (who are the fault) will just move onto another breed. However, if the responsible owners here are to save their breed, they need to recognise there is a problem with ownership, get better spokespeople in the media and work with authorities to find a solution, not get on the defensive every time there is an attack.

The moment the public and the systems you voted in

'banned' the Pit Bull as part of BSL

that same action also removed any possibility of an organised effort to breed 'good PB' (and as a consequence, good PB mixes.)

Banning the breed resulted in the banning of good breeders, who otherwise could have set standards in place.

In many ways, this is what you get when you have no professional breeders nurturing a breed and leading the way for new breeders to follow.

No professional breeders to be very picky about where their puppies go and to whom

no professional breeders to defend their breed and bring in new lineage when needed.

(Yes there'd be a handful of professional PB breeders, rightly ducking and keeping

beneath the radar, but these smart folk aren't going to put their heads up now, they're keeping their good dogs and good lineage underground where they're safe.)

Back above ground:

Australia created this sealed cesspool of poorly bred pitbull genes + other breeds bred in add-hoc to fill in the void

And now Australia reals in horror when all these mixed goodness-knows-what-combinations go running around biting people.

Well really, what did you think would happen, when you ban organised registration systems and breeding standards that only professional breeders can put in place and uphold?

Yes the naive and daft still continue to believe in breed bans and that you can sweep up genetic footprints with the assistance of your local ranger ...

but really.

You wanted a breed banned, well applaud BSL.

The registered breeders and the breed are gone.

But the dogs and their progeny, their mixed progeny, their owners,and their owners who will breed, they still exist.

When you brought in BSL you kicked the PB custodians out, so now all you're left with is the nuff nuffs with no knowledge; and their bad dogs and bad dog mixes that noone can tell apart from the good dog mixes.

Every dependable breed of dog in Australia that is held in high regard,

is this way because of the organised breed club and professional breeders nurturing the breed.

Edited August 18, 2011 by lilli

[Keira&Phoenix]

For the record, I don't agree with banning a breed either as the dickhead owners (who are the fault) will just move onto another breed. However, if the responsible owners here are to save their breed, they need to recognise there is a problem with ownership, get better spokespeople in the media and work with authorities to find a solution, not get on the defensive every time there is an attack.

The moment the public and the systems you voted in

'banned' the Pit Bull as part of BSL

that same action also removed any possibility of an organised effort to breed 'good PB' (and as a consequence, good PB mixes.)

Banning the breed resulted in the banning of good breeders, who otherwise could have set standards in place.

In many ways, this is what you get when you have no professional breeders nurturing a breed and leading the way for new breeders to follow.

No professional breeders to be very picky about where their puppies go and to whom

no professional breeders to defend their breed and bring in new lineage when needed.

(Yes there'd be a handful of professional PB breeders, rightly ducking and keeping

beneath the radar, but these smart folk aren't going to put their heads up now, they're keeping their good dogs and good lineage underground where they're safe.)

Back above ground:

Australia created this sealed cesspool of poorly bred pitbull genes + other breeds bred in add-hoc to fill in the void

And now Australia reals in horror when all these mixed goodness-knows-what-combinations go running around biting people.

Well really, what did you think would happen, when you ban organised registration systems and breeding standards that only professional breeders can put in place and uphold?

Yes the naive and daft still continue to believe in breed bans and that you can sweep up genetic footprints with the assistance of your local ranger ...

but really.

You wanted a breed banned, well applaud BSL.

The registered breeders and the breed are gone.

But the dogs and their progeny, their mixed progeny, their owners,and their owners who will breed, they still exist.

When you brought in BSL you kicked the PB custodians out, so now all you're left with is the nuff nuffs with no knowledge; and their bad dogs and bad dog mixes that noone can tell apart from the good dog mixes.

Every dependable breed of dog in Australia that is held in high regard,

is this way because of the organised breed club and professional breeders nurturing the breed.

[RottnBullies]

Absolutely lilli I couldn't agree more.. It's driven the responsible breeders underground leaving an open void for the BYB's to openly cause havoc and damage to the breed. Just because they aren't an ANKC recognized breed does not mean It couldn't work with responsible breeding practices In place

[Matthew_B]

For the record, I don't agree with banning a breed either as the dickhead owners (who are the fault) will just move onto another breed. However, if the responsible owners here are to save their breed, they need to recognise there is a problem with ownership, get better spokespeople in the media and work with authorities to find a solution, not get on the defensive every time there is an attack.

I think you'll find the Pit folks have been quite reasonably In this debate, however much can be said for the other party Including throwing Insults.

Mathew B could you please answer the previous question asked

Sure, which question? Must have missed it...

[trinabean]

For the record, I don't agree with banning a breed either as the dickhead owners (who are the fault) will just move onto another breed. However, if the responsible owners here are to save their breed, they need to recognise there is a problem with ownership, get better spokespeople in the media and work with authorities to find a solution, not get on the defensive every time there is an attack.

The moment the public and the systems you voted in

'banned' the Pit Bull as part of BSL

that same action also removed any possibility of an organised effort to breed 'good PB' (and as a consequence, good PB mixes.)

Banning the breed resulted in the banning of good breeders, who otherwise could have set standards in place.

In many ways, this is what you get when you have no professional breeders nurturing a breed and leading the way for new breeders to follow.

No professional breeders to be very picky about where their puppies go and to whom

no professional breeders to defend their breed and bring in new lineage when needed.

(Yes there'd be a handful of professional PB breeders, rightly ducking and keeping

beneath the radar, but these smart folk aren't going to put their heads up now, they're keeping their good dogs and good lineage underground where they're safe.)

Back above ground:

Australia created this sealed cesspool of poorly bred pitbull genes + other breeds bred in add-hoc to fill in the void

And now Australia reals in horror when all these mixed goodness-knows-what-combinations go running around biting people.

Well really, what did you think would happen, when you ban organised registration systems and breeding standards that only professional breeders can put in place and uphold?

Yes the naive and daft still continue to believe in breed bans and that you can sweep up genetic footprints with the assistance of your local ranger ...

but really.

You wanted a breed banned, well applaud BSL.

The registered breeders and the breed are gone.

But the dogs and their progeny, their mixed progeny, their owners,and their owners who will breed, they still exist.

When you brought in BSL you kicked the PB custodians out, so now all you're left with is the nuff nuffs with no knowledge; and their bad dogs and bad dog mixes that noone can tell apart from the good dog mixes.

Every dependable breed of dog in Australia that is held in high regard,

is this way because of the organised breed club and professional breeders nurturing the breed.

+ 1

Well explained Lilli. Thank you to Poodlefan too for her logical and eloquent arguments.