Bells73 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 (edited) Thanks for all the replies everyone. Interesting to get others take on the situation. Considering some of this was the words of another person. I will get rid of it now. Thanks Edited September 3, 2011 by Bells73 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjelkier Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 (edited) Can you please PM me the original link to the add. I would be very interested in who this dog is from. EDT, sorry missed a bit Edited September 3, 2011 by Bjelkier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Comgenital does not necessarily mean genetic - it means present at birth. I don't know enough about samoyeds to know if they have genetic problems with liver shunts or if is a developmental problem. Liver shunts are also not necessarily diagnosed till problems start to appear. There are 2 sides to every story and you don't know for sure how the breeder was approached or how she first responded. If she has just wiped her hands of it then it is a shame but you don't really know if she offered anything like taking the dog back etc. Hope this dog does find a better home and if not then the owners do thr responsible thing and and make him confortable or PTS if they are not willing to treat him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjelkier Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 There have been Samoyeds that have had liver shunts and some breeders are testing their puppies before sending them to their new homes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bells73 Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 I understand all that, and I know I only have one side of the story to go on, but it seems sad none the less. Considering the dog is FTGH, I can only presume that the offer to take the dog back was not offered. I also don't know anything at all about the breed, but just found that the whole situation did not sit right with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Which state? My cousin has a Samoyed from a super irresponsible breeder in WA that is registered... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Liver shunts are very rare in many breeds and puppies sometimes do not develop any symptoms till well after they leave the breeder. I have only heard of three in my breed in nearly 30 years and two of these had no symptoms until several months of age. It is not something that can be tested for or anticipated by breeders who have never had a case and many would never even know such a condition exists. No one can absolutely guarantee any puppy will stay healthy forever but ethical breeders will usually refund the purchase price of the puppy if it is found to have a fatal congenital defect at some time. They should not be expected to pay any expenses beyond the original purchase price for something they could not have predicted. The breeder in this case needs to realise that anyone can breed a sick dog at any time. I wonder though if the owners went in guns blazing and "blamed" the breeder and put them offside. BTW, I think it is totally unrealistic to expect anyone to take on a sick puppy and spend $1000s on surgery that may not even work. If the owners have the money and want to try to save this dog, fine, otherwise it should be managed for as long as it is comfortable before being pts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Are liver shunts a heritable disease in Samoyeds? I think these days a lot of pressure is placed on breeders to produce perfect puppies. I often see that the first reaction of many people to a congenital problem (not the same as hereditary) is to blame the breeder. While it is heartbreaking for the owners, some puppies are born with problems outside the breeders control. Liver shunts may not be apparent until 6 months of age or even older. Do we expect breeders to have a full blood panel performed on all puppies? Ultrasound on all puppies? If she has a known liver problem in her lines, then yes, I agree its unethical not to test the puppies and to pay for the treatment and/or take the dog back. Pseronally I would not expect a breeder to take back or pay for the treatment after I had purchased. Mainly because I would only buy from a breeder who I was happy did the appropriate level of health testing and did not have a serious health problem in their lines. I think it can be a nice gesture for the breeder to perhaps refund the purchase price or half the purchase price of the puppy, but I would not necessarily consider them unethical if they did not. This is yet another case where pet insurance would have been worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bells73 Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 Which state? My cousin has a Samoyed from a super irresponsible breeder in WA that is registered... Could possibly be the same. I don't know which state the pup came from, although I know where it is now. I also think it is a big ask for someone to take on the cost of this puppy. I get what people are saying about breeders not necessarily breeding perfect puppies, but "I don't breed sick puppies." Come on. A little empathy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 (edited) Which state? My cousin has a Samoyed from a super irresponsible breeder in WA that is registered... Could possibly be the same. I don't know which state the pup came from, although I know where it is now. I also think it is a big ask for someone to take on the cost of this puppy. I get what people are saying about breeders not necessarily breeding perfect puppies, but "I don't breed sick puppies." Come on. A little empathy? Yes that was very rude and unsympathetic, not to mention ridiculous. If you breed for long enough you are bound to get one "sick" one. Responsible breeders would want to know of any illnesses in their puppies. Maybe they thought they were just trying to get money out of them??? (still not an acceptable response though ) Edited September 3, 2011 by aussielover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 So what do we think the breeder should have done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 So what do we think the breeder should have done? If it had been me I would have offered to take the pup back and replace with one with the next litter. If the owners decided that they wanted to keep the pup and try their best for it I would still have offered a new pup when the time was right, but would not offer to pay for any treatment past that point. Saying that it would depend on how the pup owner had contacted me. If they had contacted me with demands for treatment etc and blaming me for breeding a sick pup I might be a bit less forthcoming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bells73 Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 I realise that I don't have the full story from both sides, but I can only go on what know. It seems giving a shit, and offering some support, may have been a good start, and I don't necessarily mean monetary. Anyway, I know nothing about any of these issues, so I might just leave it at that. I just find the whole situation sad for the poor puppy who, by the way looks adorable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/lida/dogs/search/breed/117/Samoyed That's the list of known hereditary diseases in Samoyds. It is mostly data from the USA and gradually being supplemented by Australian data. It would be good if the owners of this Samoyd get their vet to send in the info about the dog to the LIDA. It doesn't mean it would be automatically added to the list but it would be useful information in deciding whehter it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 (edited) I have just re-read the original post and it states that the puppy has a possible liver shunt. So they don't even have a definite diagnosis and they are trying to palm the dog off. He could have any number of conditions which may be congenital or not. Vets are notorious for getting diagnosis wrong so until they see a specialist and find out exactly what is wrong they are being very hasty in making any decision. If I was the breeder I would want to be informed of the test results and would only offer a refund if the dog was definitely confirmed with a congenital defect. If the owners were not prepared to have the testing done, I would want the dog returned so I could find out what the problem was. Edited September 3, 2011 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trisven13 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I can't believe that someone would want to sell a dog that they supposedly love because it has a health issue??? Surely if you can't afford to treat the dog you would rather pts than sell/give to an unknown person????? Sounds dodgy as hell to me, forgetting completely the breeder bashing. I've spoken with a breeder before about possible health issues and whilst they didn't want to acknowledge that there may be a problem with their breeding programme that they have spent years and lots of $ on, they listened to me, told me where to go to find out for sure AND chased up with me afterwards how things had gone. Turned out it wasn't a health issue BUT they were there. Maybe it comes down to spending the time on finding a GOOD registered breeder. Of course being registered doesn't equal ethical but registered doesn't mean infallible either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I can't believe that someone would want to sell a dog that they supposedly love because it has a health issue??? Surely if you can't afford to treat the dog you would rather pts than sell/give to an unknown person????? Sounds dodgy as hell to me, forgetting completely the breeder bashing. This. If I couldn't afford treatment I would euth not palm the dog off. I love mine too much for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I can't believe that someone would want to sell a dog that they supposedly love because it has a health issue??? Surely if you can't afford to treat the dog you would rather pts than sell/give to an unknown person????? Sounds dodgy as hell to me, forgetting completely the breeder bashing. I've spoken with a breeder before about possible health issues and whilst they didn't want to acknowledge that there may be a problem with their breeding programme that they have spent years and lots of $ on, they listened to me, told me where to go to find out for sure AND chased up with me afterwards how things had gone. Turned out it wasn't a health issue BUT they were there. Maybe it comes down to spending the time on finding a GOOD registered breeder. Of course being registered doesn't equal ethical but registered doesn't mean infallible either. I agree entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I can't believe that someone would want to sell a dog that they supposedly love because it has a health issue??? Surely if you can't afford to treat the dog you would rather pts than sell/give to an unknown person????? Sounds dodgy as hell to me, forgetting completely the breeder bashing. This. If I couldn't afford treatment I would euth not palm the dog off. I love mine too much for that There isn't really any need to immediately put to sleep a dog with a liver shunt. There isn't any special medication. It is a matter of treating symptoms as they arise. So antibiotics if the dog develops a UTI. Diuretics if fluid is in the belly. The Hills L/D food is pretty pricey but you could do a home made diet. The tests are expensive. $500 for a ultrasound (50-70% chance of finding the problem). CT scan $1500 (needs a general so dangerous for dog with liver problem). $4000+ to inject dye whilst dog is open + liver biopsy. Then after all that a lot of the liver problems can't be operated on and you have to treat with medicine anyway. The operation to fix a single shunt also has a 50-70% chance of working with a 10-20% chance of the dog dieing in the first 24 hours due to hypertension. My local vet didn't push me to go to the specialist. I was given the option of treating medically straight away. The specialist also didn't push for the tests. I guess because Amber's symptoms suggested she wasn't in a great way anyhow. Might be the same for this pup. Luckily the ultrasound picked up Amber's shunts. It still cost me $1400 in tests to find out what was wrong. I don't have pet insurance but have a line of credit account for such emergencies. Not everyone can come up with this sort of cash. Can't say I thought about giving Amber away as an option though! It is disappointing when a breeder does not offer support. Very disappointing. Makes you wonder why you bother doing the whole registered breeder thing. Undoubtedly there is an element of the breeder feeling defensive but suck it up and be there for your puppy buyer. I don't think the breeder needs to offer monetary support or even to replace the pup but emotional support would be a good thing to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 No there isn't Jules and I wasn't saying that, sorry if it came across that way. I was saying that if I couldn't not afford treatment of a condition I would euthanase the dog and definately not give it away. In this case I would try diet first and other supportive measures and see how that panned out well before I thought about euth or rehoming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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