The Spotted Devil Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) dandybrush - and that is where tugging is great. Revs the dog up before you enter the ring and gets them focussed on you - if they can do that with other dogs standing around it's very useful. Doesn't matter if there is a pretty lady dog trying to catch his eye or a grumpy boy dog trying to pick a fight. Plus, once I enter the ring I give 100% focus to what my dog is doing and maintain that connection with him until we exit the ring - training habits are really important in this respect too. I never mentally turn my back on my dog in training or competition - lead goes on and release the dog verbally to relax whilst I get feedback from instructors, stock up on treats etc. I also use peeing as a reward after an agility/obedience round Edited September 5, 2011 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandybrush Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 thanx spotted devil never thought of that, my boy LOVES his tug so i think that would work greatly i always get him to pee before we go in the ring also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeK Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 You can work through a dog with a weak nerve and get them playing the same everywhere regardless - I know you can I have done so and have the results to prove it ;). And yep I was told she was the wrong dog for the job - just don't take no for an answer . In the end I would have said its not about having the dog "tug" its about having the dog work at a level your happy with - enthusiastically, full of focus for the task at hand and giving you their all. Funny there are still a few situations my young dog will not tug in (I can count them on one hand but none the less still there) yet she can still work in those environments and give me 100% effort. Thats how the nerve is lost in the breed, disguise weak nerve in the training then breed the dog and make some more weak nerve so before long the bloodline is no good is what happens on the Shepherd Dogs,the Rottweiler and Dobermann. If you wanting to waste valuable training time getting the wrong dogs over problems the good dogs dont be suffering with is ok if you are liking to do that, but getting the right dog from proven lines makes training much more fun is my opninion. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) You can work through a dog with a weak nerve and get them playing the same everywhere regardless - I know you can I have done so and have the results to prove it ;). And yep I was told she was the wrong dog for the job - just don't take no for an answer . In the end I would have said its not about having the dog "tug" its about having the dog work at a level your happy with - enthusiastically, full of focus for the task at hand and giving you their all. Funny there are still a few situations my young dog will not tug in (I can count them on one hand but none the less still there) yet she can still work in those environments and give me 100% effort. Thats how the nerve is lost in the breed, disguise weak nerve in the training then breed the dog and make some more weak nerve so before long the bloodline is no good is what happens on the Shepherd Dogs,the Rottweiler and Dobermann. If you wanting to waste valuable training time getting the wrong dogs over problems the good dogs dont be suffering with is ok if you are liking to do that, but getting the right dog from proven lines makes training much more fun is my opninion. Joe Sure. But we're not necessarily talking about breeding stock. We're talking about owners of dogs that are primarily pets getting the best out of themselves and their companion whilst having the maximum amount of fun. Otherwise we'd all have high drive working Border Collies and Kelpies doing agility...I love watching these dogs run but they are not for me. I chose a non-traditional obedience/agility breed as a challenge. He has taught me more than any book, DVD or person and has made me a better trainer. I was better prepared for my working ESS but again, I didn't get the traditional (working Lab) retrieving dog. I really enjoy handling the working line Labs but I like living with a Springer. Edited September 5, 2011 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) JoeK its a sport and its about having fun with whatever dog you take on and making the best of what you have ;). I don't consider I wasted valuable training time - its not about the end goal - thats icing on the cake its about the journey. Things happen at various points on that journey that are outside of your control and you make what you can out a of particular situation at a particular time. Having a dog out of action through injury for nearly 8 months you would also probably consider a"waste of valuable training time" but it happens. Edited September 5, 2011 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 You can work through a dog with a weak nerve and get them playing the same everywhere regardless - I know you can I have done so and have the results to prove it ;). And yep I was told she was the wrong dog for the job - just don't take no for an answer . In the end I would have said its not about having the dog "tug" its about having the dog work at a level your happy with - enthusiastically, full of focus for the task at hand and giving you their all. Funny there are still a few situations my young dog will not tug in (I can count them on one hand but none the less still there) yet she can still work in those environments and give me 100% effort. Thats how the nerve is lost in the breed, disguise weak nerve in the training then breed the dog and make some more weak nerve so before long the bloodline is no good is what happens on the Shepherd Dogs,the Rottweiler and Dobermann. If you wanting to waste valuable training time getting the wrong dogs over problems the good dogs dont be suffering with is ok if you are liking to do that, but getting the right dog from proven lines makes training much more fun is my opninion. Joe In an ideal world you are right, but sometimes even dogs from 'proven' lines don't quite work out the way they are meant to. As a pet owner that leaves you with pretty limited options - either get rid of a perfectly good dog that doesn't quite meet your performance expectations, but you have bonded with - in the process handing it onto someone who is potentially less likely to be able to help it cope with their issues. Put the dog to sleep because it is not worthy of life in a performance home. Work with your dog to make them the best they can possibly be. I have one dog just like this - he has taken a massive amount of work to get to the stage where he is, but we still have a bit of a way to go before he is running consistently. In the process I have learned so much from him that my drivey, confident girls could never have taught me. I don't think it has been a waste of time, far from it. It is certainly more rewarding and fun to run my older girl week in and week out, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the challenge of improving with my boy. Also - any owner/breeder worth their salt would identify those problems and choose NOT to breed from a dog like my boy, regardless of the results he might achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeK Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 You can work through a dog with a weak nerve and get them playing the same everywhere regardless - I know you can I have done so and have the results to prove it ;). And yep I was told she was the wrong dog for the job - just don't take no for an answer . Dunno, ness - perhaps we should just relegate our unsuitable dogs to the backyard And just because a dog won't tug doesn't mean they're "weak nerved". It's just that my Dalmatian would rather have been pi$$ing on a tree :D When the dog wont be tugging outside the backyard with loss on drive is weak nerve or low on prey drive. If you try on a dog with high prey and good nerve, makes no difference where you tugging, the focus and drive is the same. Dogs who have the drive and focus problem in the environment change is what causes police dog and guide dog etc to wash out and give away as pets. My point here is many people thinking is a training problem for the dog to change drives on the environment but is not training problem, is in the dog genetics is what I am saying, yes?. So to the people finding this happening on their dog is not time for beating yourself up and say I doing this wrong and make mistakes on the training, the problem is in the dog and the training needs different approach to work around it. Once you experiencing the training of the good nerve dog no matter what the dog is or what you train for, you never want weak nerve dog again, is huge difference. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Well, someone let me know when they start breeding working line Dalmatians..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) Since you don't venture into the brags thread or the training talk thread JoeK here is a link to my "weak nerved" dog working at a trial the other weekend . She has been an absolute delight to train for the most part and is a blast to handle on the agility course (when she isn't injured). http://www.youtube.c...u/0/KjLv8YSZiss Edited September 5, 2011 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 I don't consider it weak nerved for a border collie to not want to tug. They weren't bred to chomp things. Chomping sheep is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 What's the difference between a dog 'working in drive' and a dog that is focused on working to earn a reward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) JoeK, I don't think it's very helpful for the OP to say "get a high prey, good nerve" dog. If you're talking about Schutzhund or military/police dogs - sure. But we're not. The OP is looking for ways to channel her pet dog's energy into something constructive. For the record I LOVE training and trialling my Dalmatian (in case anyone didn't know that already ;) ) - it is a joy to have him flying around the agility course or prancing at my side like a gangly colt. He drives like an old Jag - elegant and stylish but a little rough in the steering not to mention the L-plate driver on board. I also LOVE handling my young Springer and my friend's working Labs. It's like switching between a racing Mini Minor and a bloody great Mac Truck. Variety is the spice of life you know! Edited September 5, 2011 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) Hi JoeK He is definitely not the wrong dog for the job :D He has plenty of drive and reasonably good nerves. Certainly the best dog I have owned so far! There is definitely a technique to utilising tug for sports to get the best performance out of your dog. I am still working out how to use the technique correctly. I am sure the fault lies with me and how I have taught tugging with my dog. For a start he won't bring the tug back and either plays keep away or decides to chew/destroy it. That is the first thing I have to fix, along with my body language/energy when tugging with him (that is going to be the hardest bit). Then I need to work out how to get him tugging around food and his favourite toy. If even a world class competitor such as Susan Garrett experiences these issues with her dogs (and has a term for it! and program on how to work through it) - and her dogs are certainly high drive and good nerves to get to the level they do - than I cannot complain too much when as a first time competitor and first time trying to use tugging I also struggle with it. ETA: and dogs can have a preference for certain toys and may prefer a different toy to a tug and may tug when there is only the tug but not when there is their favourite oy Edited September 5, 2011 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeK Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Since you don't venture into the brags thread or the training talk thread JoeK here is a link to my "weak nerved" dog working at a trial the other weekend . She has been an absolute delight to train for the most part and is a blast to handle on the agility course (when she isn't injured). http://www.youtube.c...u/0/KjLv8YSZiss Ahhh yesss, thats what the breeders of the weak nerved Shepherd Dogs tell us, have a look at this dog on the Schutzhund video what can be achieving on the weak nerve beautiful. What they dont be telling us is the dog can only work one field and one decoy for good score so the dog is bred and the weak nerve passed on you see?. Then somebody gets a pup from this dog and say is nerve problem in the pup and the breeder saying no, you train him wrong and show the video again see?. What I answering on this post was question why my dog wont be tugging on different enviroments and I say is nerve problem on the dog is why. Some may think is good to learn training around the nerve problems that ok, my opnion is better for breeders to learn how to breed strong nerve then we dont have to worry about training around thoes problems and we get a better quality dogs for the future. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Yes but most of the people who ask these questions and hang out in these threads are not breeders and as TSD said most are pet people who have purchased a dog who is more often then not desexed and won't be contributing to the gene pool in any manner. And that is just one example - you can see others - this dog has not put a foot wrong in a trial ring yet regardless of where we have trialled (so we aren't just talking one home ground). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 I don't consider it weak nerved for a border collie to not want to tug. They weren't bred to chomp things. Chomping sheep is bad. Gold. Although I'm not sure that anyone gave Xena that memo. Exactly - what is weak nerve in one breed is perfectly acceptable in another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Ness missed that memo as well. She must have got the same one Xena got . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 What I answering on this post was question why my dog wont be tugging on different enviroments and I say is nerve problem on the dog is why. Some may think is good to learn training around the nerve problems that ok, my opnion is better for breeders to learn how to breed strong nerve then we dont have to worry about training around thoes problems and we get a better quality dogs for the future. Joe Well, it's just so easy, isn't it, to blame a problem on 'weak nerve'? This attitude peeves me no end. There are a myriad of reasons why a dog might not tug in different environments. For starters, try making sure your dog is actually 100% comfortable in the environment in the first place, and that includes being 100% comfortable with you! Claiming that a failure to achieve this is the dog's fault for having weak nerve is an advertisement of ignorance and poor training methods. Of course you can achieve it with a dog that has 'weak nerve'. People are doing it all over the world. By all means, if you need a dog with 'strong nerves' then one that tugs in all environments with no work is an excellent bet. Surprise surprise, though, not every dog in the world is born bold and obsessed with a piece of rag held by a human, and there is a damn good reason for that. In some breeds, this is GOOD BREEDING STOCK. OMG, what am I saying?? Not every breed is exactly the same as a GSD, bred for the same purposes, with the same heritability of traits??? It's okay, Joe, I have some smelling salts handy! These working line-centric views have no place in this conversation, as has already been pointed out. Yet you persist with trying to apply them to every dog situation that comes up, regardless of the breed and without knowing much at all about the dog's learning history or their relationship with the handler. And you tell me that I need practical experience! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 I don't consider it weak nerved for a border collie to not want to tug. They weren't bred to chomp things. Chomping sheep is bad. Gold. Although I'm not sure that anyone gave Xena that memo. Exactly - what is weak nerve in one breed is perfectly acceptable in another. Ness missed that memo as well. She must have got the same one Xena got . Chomping sheep would suggest to me a lack of confidence on sheep. If they can't move the sheep they will sometimes try chomping. Some rude sheep need a chomp though Poppy is pretty strong and does little chomping. Brock and Amber are not so confident and do more chomping. Amber thinks she is a corgi and likes to poke with her sharp little nose! No one is safe from this. Maybe it is a sable thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 I don't consider it weak nerved for a border collie to not want to tug. They weren't bred to chomp things. Chomping sheep is bad. Gold. Although I'm not sure that anyone gave Xena that memo. Exactly - what is weak nerve in one breed is perfectly acceptable in another. Ness missed that memo as well. She must have got the same one Xena got . Chomping sheep would suggest to me a lack of confidence on sheep. If they can't move the sheep they will sometimes try chomping. Some rude sheep need a chomp though Poppy is pretty strong and does little chomping. Brock and Amber are not so confident and do more chomping. Amber thinks she is a corgi and likes to poke with her sharp little nose! No one is safe from this. Maybe it is a sable thing! Xena doesn't really chomp - she doesn't actually even take fleece. She is just hard in at them all the time. If a sheep is rude though she will tell it off (bark) and give it a little more space. We are going back to herding soon - very excited (and very off topic - sorry.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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