Drive Questions

[bedazzledx2]

Just a comment about the term 'work ethic' which I see used more and more in dog training lists. To me this is a bit anthropomorphic. I think a better term would be tenacity.

[GoldenGirl85]

Aussielover are you doing the K9 Pro TID program? I'm interested to see how Mindy goes with it, I'm considering it for Lexi

[Jigsaw]

Drive is the motivating force behind a behaviour - pursuit or avoidance. It can be biological (food, sex) or psychosocial (dominance, filial needs) but few are either or. Physiological arousal (be it fear, anxiety, excitement etc) can influence how strongly motivated an animal can be to pursue their goal (tug, food). :D

[Red Fox]

JoeK, I don't think it's very helpful for the OP to say "get a high prey, good nerve" dog. If you're talking about Schutzhund or military/police dogs - sure. But we're not. The OP is looking for ways to channel her pet dog's energy into something constructive.

I don't think that Joe is suggesting that the OP get herself a new dog, but rather that some of the problems she is experiencing may be due to the dogs genetics and not her training.

Nothing wrong with working around it, but you cannot create good nerve or high drive if it was never there to start with.

[~*Shell*~]

If you're really having problems with the program aussielover - email k9pro. You'll always get a myriad of answers on DOL so if you want the most accurate information, go straight to the source :D

[Staranais]

If you're really having problems with the program aussielover - email k9pro. You'll always get a myriad of answers on DOL so if you want the most accurate information, go straight to the source :D

Yes, I agree 100%.

I'm not clear from your question whether you're doing one of Steve's programs, or whether you're just asking a general question about the concept of drive. If it's the latter, then disregard what I'm going to say. But if it's the former, I'd say that since you're paying the money to learn about a training system from a good trainer (and IMO, Steve is a very good trainer), then you might as well get your money's worth and ask him your questions directly.

On a forum you'll get people giving you lots of different answers based on their experiences, on their level of understanding, and even on their own interpretation of the words you use. You can get good advice on here, but it can also be very hard to sort out the wheat from the chaff, especially when you are only just starting to learn about a particular system yourself.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Staranais

[Lablover]

Interesting thread. Liked the Felix Ho link also. Wonder his trainability component: 14. Mental clarity under excitement and pressure is? What did we think?

[Red Fox]

On a forum you'll get people giving you lots of different answers based on their experiences, on their level of understanding, and even on their own interpretation of the words you use. You can get good advice on here, but it can also be very hard to sort out the wheat from the chaff, especially when you are only just starting to learn about a particular system yourself.

This. If you are doing the DLP tune out everyone else, follow it to the letter and you will get results.

[JoeK]

What I answering on this post was question why my dog wont be tugging on different enviroments and I say is nerve problem on the dog is why. Some may think is good to learn training around the nerve problems that ok, my opnion is better for breeders to learn how to breed strong nerve then we dont have to worry about training around thoes problems and we get a better quality dogs for the future.

Joe

Well, it's just so easy, isn't it, to blame a problem on 'weak nerve'? This attitude peeves me no end. There are a myriad of reasons why a dog might not tug in different environments. For starters, try making sure your dog is actually 100% comfortable in the environment in the first place, and that includes being 100% comfortable with you! Claiming that a failure to achieve this is the dog's fault for having weak nerve is an advertisement of ignorance and poor training methods. Of course you can achieve it with a dog that has 'weak nerve'. People are doing it all over the world.

By all means, if you need a dog with 'strong nerves' then one that tugs in all environments with no work is an excellent bet. Surprise surprise, though, not every dog in the world is born bold and obsessed with a piece of rag held by a human, and there is a damn good reason for that. In some breeds, this is GOOD BREEDING STOCK. OMG, what am I saying?? Not every breed is exactly the same as a GSD, bred for the same purposes, with the same heritability of traits??? It's okay, Joe, I have some smelling salts handy!

These working line-centric views have no place in this conversation, as has already been pointed out. Yet you persist with trying to apply them to every dog situation that comes up, regardless of the breed and without knowing much at all about the dog's learning history or their relationship with the handler. And you tell me that I need practical experience!

Corvus please, you needing to understand what the nerve is in the first place, if you ever having a trained dog with good nerve, you would not be arguing this point. If a dog works in one environment and not the other, this happens becuase of insecurity in the dog and the nerve of the dog determining level of insecurity. Why you see a dog standing on the corner of the busy road tail tucked between his legs with terror on his face? What makes one dog do this and the next one stand there and doesnt care on the traffic? Nerve strength is the difference on the two behavior.The weak nerve is overwhelming from the all the traffic, the strong nerve dog he dont care about the traffic and keeps the same handler focus anywhere.

What makes a dog fall off the A board and taking 3 weeks to get him back up for another go is weak nerve poor recovery. Hard nerve dog fall from the A board and get straight back on the horse, you understanding my point now? Is nothing to do with breed, every breed has example of good and poor nerve and good nerve on sporting dogs is half the job done.

Joe

[JoeK]

JoeK, I don't think it's very helpful for the OP to say "get a high prey, good nerve" dog. If you're talking about Schutzhund or military/police dogs - sure. But we're not. The OP is looking for ways to channel her pet dog's energy into something constructive.

I don't think that Joe is suggesting that the OP get herself a new dog, but rather that some of the problems she is experiencing may be due to the dogs genetics and not her training.

Nothing wrong with working around it, but you cannot create good nerve or high drive if it was never there to start with.

Yes I thanking you Secretkei is what I am meaning. Many times people working a routine in the backyard very good and go on the club field and the dog is not working properly and they asking what I doing wrong in the training, yes?. What is doing wrong on the training is not compensation for weak nerve of the dog. If the training in the backyard was done on good nerve dog, he work the same on the club field no difference. The genetics on the dog makes big difference on the training result.

Joe

[corvus]

Corvus please, you needing to understand what the nerve is in the first place, if you ever having a trained dog with good nerve, you would not be arguing this point. If a dog works in one environment and not the other, this happens becuase of insecurity in the dog and the nerve of the dog determining level of insecurity. Why you see a dog standing on the corner of the busy road tail tucked between his legs with terror on his face? What makes one dog do this and the next one stand there and doesnt care on the traffic? Nerve strength is the difference on the two behavior.The weak nerve is overwhelming from the all the traffic, the strong nerve dog he dont care about the traffic and keeps the same handler focus anywhere.

What makes a dog fall off the A board and taking 3 weeks to get him back up for another go is weak nerve poor recovery. Hard nerve dog fall from the A board and get straight back on the horse, you understanding my point now? Is nothing to do with breed, every breed has example of good and poor nerve and good nerve on sporting dogs is half the job done.

Joe

Oh, please. Why is this so hard for you to grasp? It's not that I don't understand what you are talking about. You can tell me in a dozen different ways and I will just get cross because I already know all that. The fact that I disagree with you is not due to ignorance on my part. I disagree with you because what you are presenting is a gross simplification of what I have spent several months studying full time and collecting data on. You can bet my 1054 respondents that breed DOES matter. It is also a gross simplification of dog behaviour and inborn traits in general.

Every time you wax lyrical about dogs with good nerve, you describe behaviour that both my dogs do. Yet often when you tch tch over dogs with weak nerve, you describe behaviour that both my dogs do. That tells me that this dichotomy in your world is not an all pervasive one, and that's assuming it exists in my breeds at all. There are GSDs working as police dogs that have "poor nerve" by your description. I can point you in the direction of the studies if you like. It is also established fact that the heritability of certain behaviour in GSDs is greater than the heritability of the same behaviours in, say, Labrador Retrievers. Breed does matter.

And still, all of this is beside the point. You keep saying, no it's not, because I'm explaining why the OP's dog behaves the way they do. No, you are offering one possible reason the OP's dog behaves the way it does, based on your position as a working line GSD diehard, and no solutions. Who cares about Mindy's nerve? There are plenty of tried and true solutions to the problem the OP is experiencing with her. Nerve does not need to come into it, and if it does, it is pure speculation because we do not know her genetic background.

I know this is difficult for you, but really, there are plenty of explanations for her behaviour that are based in learning theory, conditioning, and emotional states. Writing it off as poor nerve is a copout. It obscures the full picture. It's lumping, my friend.

[wuffles]

Sorry, the reason my dog doesn't tug in all environments is that she doesn't really enjoy it. I understand what Joe is saying and yes, weak nerve COULD be a reason but it's not the ONLY reason. Some dogs are more stimulated by the environment, some just don't like tugging, some prefer another behaviour that they will do instead.

One of my dogs I would call weak nerved, he can struggle in new environments and for example will refuse food if he is nervous (like at the vet). I do think that this is genetic in his case. My other dog is submissive and non-confrontational, so some might call her weak nerved, but she has no problems in new environments and does well at obedience trials even on grounds neither her nor I have seen before in our lives. I didn't have to work through any nerve or confidence issues with her. But tugging is not a big reward to her, so often she won't do it.

(Both my dogs are desexed pets, like most people's dogs in this thread)

[Kavik]

I am pretty sure that if someone experienced with teaching tug had my dog from a pup he would be tugging, I just managed to stuff it up He has taught me very well which is his preferred toy

which is one of these (his fav is the blue cat)

http://www.ozpetshop.com.au/product_info.php/products_id/1875

[huski]

Aussielover, I cannot agree more with Shell and Staranais. Ask K9 Pro these questions rather than DOL, that is the service you are paying for and no one here will better understand the concept or program you are doing than the person who designed it for you.

There are many possible reasons your dog may not be driving for the food around you, one guess is that if she's been rewarded for calm behavior (especially around you) this could be stopping her showing drive with you (though she will do it at other times away from you I.e. chasing birds, stealing food etc). That is just a guess though. Video it and send it to Steve in your weekly report so he can see what is going on. I remember seeing her at the Sydney workshop and I wouldn't say she didnt have drive

[aussielover]

Just drive questions in general thanks to all who replied, lots of interesting thoughts.

Will of corse ask Steve his opinions too!

[Red Fox]

Wow Corvus, no need to get your knickers in a knot. Just because you don't agree with something it doesn't mean it has no place in this discussion.

Good luck with the TID aussielover, I'm sure you'll do well with it.

[corvus]

Awww, sorry SK. I didn't mean to offend you. Maybe the OP ought to decide if it's relevant to the topic or not.

Just to make it clear, I'm opinionated but that doesn't make it personal. Except for Joe, who continues to butcher things I find beautifully, wonderfully complex and spend a lot of time admiring. ;)

[huski]

IMO there is no question as to whether or not a dog's nerves can affect it's ability to go into drive in a strange place and/or around distractions but I think that's just one of many reasons for a handler to have trouble getting their dog to go into drive.

I've seen Aussielover's dog IRL and I could be wrong as I'm no expert, but she did not appear to be a nervous dog by any means.

My youngest dog wasn't nervous (she's actually quite a hard dog) either but I had a lot of trouble getting her to go into drive for me.

[JoeK]

IMO there is no question as to whether or not a dog's nerves can affect it's ability to go into drive in a strange place and/or around distractions but I think that's just one of many reasons for a handler to have trouble getting their dog to go into drive.

I've seen Aussielover's dog IRL and I could be wrong as I'm no expert, but she did not appear to be a nervous dog by any means.

My youngest dog wasn't nervous (she's actually quite a hard dog) either but I had a lot of trouble getting her to go into drive for me.

Weak nerve on the dog not only display nervous behavior and is a trap some fall onto with the protection dog, he looking tough and confident to fight the world but is really fear biter with poor nerve who think he must fight for his life from experience he fears to reduce his own stress,see?.

A weak nerve you see at the vet, the dog he put on the brakes at the door and the owner try to pull him in by the collar. The dog maybe good on the obedience commands beautiful but the dog in the vet doorway has no focus to the handler and is try to running away. Even if the dog has bad experience at the vet from the past, the hard nerve dog recover, maybe he cautions going in, but he will still respond to handler command where the weak nerve dog wont be is the difference.

We can be saying the dog jam on the brakes at the door becuase he had bad experience from the vet last time is true, but the nerve of the dog is what make him either get over the past experience or freak out at the door in terror. When training for sport or work is same thing we say something easy like walking over strange surfacing. The nerve level for my opnion is best is dog that realise the surfacing is different and maybe stop to have a look, then you call come and he walk over, still has handler focus even when he unsure. The weak nerve dog will be loosing handler focus and has eyes only for the strange flooring so the dog become foggy in the head and wont listen to the handler.

You can fix this dog on the strange surfacing with training yes, but this things like this on this dog will come up through the training again so you have all this little quirky thing to work through in the training. Ok, can you be making this dog work in the end result, probably you can but was very hard work comparing with a dog of good nerve that has no quirkys to deal with is the difference.

Same as pet, do you want dog to slam the brakes on at the vet door and cause a scene and distress, or do you be wanting dog to walk in an obey commands like he does at home?. For me, good nerve is equal important on the pet as the working and sporting dog, yes?

Joe

Huski, too hard on nerve can make the dog sluggy and they dont be going into drive easy is the problem which can happen. We talking dog that going into drive well at home but not on strange environmnt. My experience on well focus dogs on the handler in distractions are always dogs of good nerve which come out later down the training track. Dogs that loose handler focus easy in distractions is never in my experience symptom of good nerve and in the puppy dog in early training the puppy who looses focus more easy than others is the ones you watching for maybe wrong dog for the job. Never have I seen washout on puppy with natural focus is how the best dogs start out.

Joe

Edited September 6, 2011 by JoeK

[huski]

Joe I'm not talking about whether or not a dog with weak nerve is untrainable or not. I am just saying that weak nerve is only one of many reasons a dog may not be working well in drive or will not show drive around the handler.