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Dr Bruce Syme

Vets All Natural - Perfect Puppy Nutrition

395 posts in this topic

JulesP   

Actually i have just found the same problem, i have been feeding my BT VANS, for about 6 months,but feed the 15 kg bag, which has no list of ingredients on.

My 13 yr old dally has just had a urate stone blockage again, the last one was about 8 yrs ago, and since then i have been feeding firstly optimum, and now Advance and wings and necks.

I am considering putting him on the Vans too, i have a list of high purine foods, but without an ingredients list for Vans i can't work out wether it would be bettewr for him.

It does have yeast in it which is a high purine food. There is a pdf which has the rough ingredients.

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ESCS   

I am using the complete mix with rabbit BARF patties as the meat component. Is this ok? I have been usingVAN products including the sensitive skin supplement and I very happy with them. Itching, hot spots and anal gland issues have disappeared. Coat is shiny and soft.

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This may seem like a silly question but I am feeding 2 dogs on this. One gets 55g mix/ 55ml water the other gets 115g mix/ 115ml water but it hardly seems like enough water, it barely covers the dry mix. How "wet" does the mixture need to be to properly ferment? I have been adding an extra splash of water to add a bit more moisture.

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Guest Panzer Attack!   
Guest Panzer Attack!

Just a bit of feedback on the new Premium Choice aka Raw whateverthenumberis :o ... we are on our second packet of it now (my older boy eats dry but my Papillon eats VAN and bones almost exclusively) and he LOVES it. His coat is shiny, his poos are awesome (made a mistake of giving him some kibble as treats a couple days ago, we will not be doing it again!) and it keeps him occupied eating it frozen out of a couple of Kongs throughout the day. I think he actually prefers the new formula, and it doesn't seem as yucky (I cannot handle raw meat without feeling ill) as the old stuff, it doesn't smell as ... fermented?

Two thumbs up from us!

Quick question tho - what would you recommend feeding as training treats to go with the raw diet? He can't eat too many of the VAN treats cos they're a bit rich for him and I'd prefer to feed some raw stuff. :)

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I am using the complete mix with rabbit BARF patties as the meat component. Is this ok? I have been usingVAN products including the sensitive skin supplement and I very happy with them. Itching, hot spots and anal gland issues have disappeared. Coat is shiny and soft.

You can use the BARF patties as the protein source, but you are unbalancing it slightly, plus it would be quite expensive. Although the BARF patties might be the only reliable source of rabbit (excluding buying human grade)so I can understand you using them.

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This may seem like a silly question but I am feeding 2 dogs on this. One gets 55g mix/ 55ml water the other gets 115g mix/ 115ml water but it hardly seems like enough water, it barely covers the dry mix. How "wet" does the mixture need to be to properly ferment? I have been adding an extra splash of water to add a bit more moisture.

Its not so much 'wet' but more the presence of water triggers the grains to begin the sprouting process. You can add more water if your dog liked it sloppier, but just make sure your stick to the same amount of CM you have been using to maintain the body weight.

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Just a bit of feedback on the new Premium Choice aka Raw whateverthenumberis :o ... we are on our second packet of it now (my older boy eats dry but my Papillon eats VAN and bones almost exclusively) and he LOVES it. His coat is shiny, his poos are awesome (made a mistake of giving him some kibble as treats a couple days ago, we will not be doing it again!) and it keeps him occupied eating it frozen out of a couple of Kongs throughout the day. I think he actually prefers the new formula, and it doesn't seem as yucky (I cannot handle raw meat without feeling ill) as the old stuff, it doesn't smell as ... fermented?

Two thumbs up from us!

Quick question tho - what would you recommend feeding as training treats to go with the raw diet? He can't eat too many of the VAN treats cos they're a bit rich for him and I'd prefer to feed some raw stuff. :)

Thanks :thumbsup: The less yuckiness is from added carrot fibre, you will note its firmer and also accounts for the more veggie smell. We have also increased the offal content hence why the new Raw76 is a deeper red.

The number 76 represents the 76 micro and macro nutrients found in the food.

Training treats - Bruce thinks a healthy, long term option is to buy a food dehydrator. Then you can dehydrate all sorts of meat, fruit, offal that your dog likes. Dehydrating doesnt denature the protein so your still following a raw diet.

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juice   

Any answer as to ingredients? or wether he considers it too high in purine for a dally?

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Sorry juice, missed your question.

If you pm me your email address we can send you the diet sheet that Bruce made up specifically for Dallies.

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This may seem like a silly question but I am feeding 2 dogs on this. One gets 55g mix/ 55ml water the other gets 115g mix/ 115ml water but it hardly seems like enough water, it barely covers the dry mix. How "wet" does the mixture need to be to properly ferment? I have been adding an extra splash of water to add a bit more moisture.

Its not so much 'wet' but more the presence of water triggers the grains to begin the sprouting process. You can add more water if your dog liked it sloppier, but just make sure your stick to the same amount of CM you have been using to maintain the body weight.

Thank you! Glad to know I can add more water, makes it easier to mix with meat when its a bit sloppier.

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Guest lavendergirl   
Guest lavendergirl

Still no sign of the Health Rolls - really keen to try them? :)

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ESCS   

Thanks VAN. I will see if I can find human grade rabbit. I was concerned that the nutiritional balance may be off using both BARF and VAN. I might try her on the pre mix VAN with the kangaroo meat. Kangaroo didn't agree with my other tibbie but it might be ok for this one. It would be fantastic if it suits her as it would be very convenient.

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Austerra   

Just to let Premium Choice users know that we have improved the product and renamed it Raw76.

The name reflects the 76 macro and micro nutrients it contains and some of the range has had name changes -

Allerblend is now Raw76 Sensitive Skin and Senior is now Raw76 Joint Health.

The improvements include a greater percentage of offal, carrot fibre to make it easier to handle and thicker packaging.

We hope the improvements are well accepted :)

I have found that my girl won't even touch it now, whereas she loved the old formula (would scoff it down) and their breath absolutely stinks! My boy will still eat it but not as enthusiastically as he used to.

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megan_   

Pa I just mix the VAN dry with water & kangaroo meat, chop it up and use that as training "treats" (they work for all their food, so it isn't really a treat as such). It is messy but they love it.

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clash   

In a couple of weeks am going to switch over to VAN.

Like humans, now days dogs spend much more time indoors.

What would be the source of Vitamin D in a Vet's All Natural diet?

I am a little worried about this.

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korbin13   

In a couple of weeks am going to switch over to VAN.

Like humans, now days dogs spend much more time indoors.

What would be the source of Vitamin D in a Vet's All Natural diet?

I am a little worried about this.

Not answering your question sorry but do dogs even convert sunlight into vitamin d like we do?

Eggs and sardines are good sources of vitamin d.

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Guest Panzer Attack!   
Guest Panzer Attack!

Pa I just mix the VAN dry with water & kangaroo meat, chop it up and use that as training "treats" (they work for all their food, so it isn't really a treat as such). It is messy but they love it.

To my joy I've discovered the VAN rolls in Safeway so I'm using those now! :D He works sooo hard for it and it's less gross to hand feed than the normal mix. I let some dry out for a few hours as an experiment and it's a lot easier to break into tiny pieces. Yay!

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clash   

Not answering your question sorry but do dogs even convert sunlight into vitamin d like we do?

Eggs and sardines are good sources of vitamin d.

Eggs and sardines are quite poor sources of D, if the dog is mostly indoors during the day. See this US government chart1.

In fact the discovery of Vitamin D was made with using dogs. It's quite a story, the researcher inadvertently had the dogs hidden from sunlight and they developed ricketts2:

Most noteworthy was the work by Sir Edward Mellanby, who demonstrated that he could produce rickets in dogs by feeding them the diet characteristic of Scotland, ie, oatmeal; unknown to Sir Edward Mellanby was the fact that he deprived those dogs of sunlight. Because of the work of McCollum and Davis in discovering fat-soluble vitamin A, Mellanby attributed the ability of cod liver oil to cure the rachitic condition in dogs as being another property of vitamin A3. McCollum very cleverly destroyed the vitamin A activity of cod liver oil by bubbling oxygen through the solution and heating it, but the ability to cure rickets remained in the preparation. McCollum correctly concluded that this represented a new vitamin, called vitamin D4. Huldshinsky5 and Chick et al6 independently demonstrated that rachitic children could be cured with exposure to sunlight or artificially produced ultraviolet light. The puzzle was ultimately solved when Steenbock and Black7 discovered that irradiation not only of the skin of animals but also of the food they consumed imparted antirachitic activity to either the animals or their food.

Cholesterol exuded from the skin of dogs (and humans) converts into Vitamin D in the presence of UV radiation. Skin absorbs this into the bloodstream, and other animals lick their fur.

Hence my concern at Vitamin D deficiency for a dog sheltered from UV. While excessive Vitamin D risks skeletal malformation such as hip dysplasia8, insufficient Vitamin D also prevents growing bones from developing properly.

References:

1 US Government, Office of Dietary Supplements. Health Professional Fact Sheet - Vitamin D http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD-HealthProfessional/#h3

2 DeLuca, H. Overview of general physiologic features and functions of vitamin D1. Am J Clin Nutr December 2004 vol. 80 no. 6 1689S-1696S http://www.ajcn.org/content/80/6/1689S.full

3 Mellanby E. An experimental investigation on rickets. Lancet 1919;1:407–12. http://www.ajcn.org/external-ref?access_num=10.1016/S0140-6736(01)25465-8&link_type=DOI

4 McCollum EV, Simmonds N, Becker JE, Shipley PG. An experimental demonstration of the existence of a vitamin which promotes calcium deposition. J Biol Chem 1922;53:293–8. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/ijlink?linkType=PDF&journalCode=jbc&resid=53/2/293

5 Huldshinsky K. Heilung von Rachitis durch kunstalich Hohen-sonne. (The healing of rickets with artificial high altitude sun.) Dtsch Med Wochenschr 1919;45:712–3 (in German).

6 Chick H, Dolyell EJ, Hume EM. Studies of rickets in Vienna 1919–1922. Med Res Counc (GB) Spec Rep Ser 1923;77.

7 Steenbock H, Black A. Fat-soluble vitamins. XVII. The induction of growth-promoting and calcifying properties in a ration by exposure to ultraviolet light. J Biol Chem 1924;61:405–22. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/ijlink?linkType=PDF&journalCode=jbc&resid=61/2/405

8 Richardson DC, The role of nutrition in canine hip dysplasia. Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract. 1992 May;22(3):529-40. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1687006/pdf/canvetj00345-0036.pdf

Edited by clash

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Guest lavendergirl   
Guest lavendergirl

Pa I just mix the VAN dry with water & kangaroo meat, chop it up and use that as training "treats" (they work for all their food, so it isn't really a treat as such). It is messy but they love it.

To my joy I've discovered the VAN rolls in Safeway so I'm using those now! :D He works sooo hard for it and it's less gross to hand feed than the normal mix. I let some dry out for a few hours as an experiment and it's a lot easier to break into tiny pieces. Yay!

Do you mean the new health rolls? Didn't think they were out yet??

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Hi Lavendergirl,

We have released a roll into Woolworths and other supermarkets just in Victoria (for the immediate future) only 2 varieties available, adult dog and cat. The functional rolls (joint health, sensitive skin etc) should be out in about 4 more weeks in selected pet stores and vets. The delay is very frustrating for us so we appreciate how frustrated those looking forward to them must be.

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