ineedsleep Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Can someone please give me some further information or links on puppy heart murmurs. We have just found out that our 3 month old puppy has a heart murmur, and the vets are now suggesting that we have to have an ultrasound done to further investigate the problem, we have been told that it is a grade 3/4 and this could be heard on both sides of his chest. If i could have a link that explains this further i would greatly appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Hi.. These two threads deal with heart murmurs..they may be helpful to you ? Hope things work out OK for your puppy... must be a worrying time LINK LINK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Is the puppy from a registered breeder? If so I would return the puppy to them and let them deal with it. If it turns out to have a congenital heart defect then you should request a refund or replacement puppy. The breeder also needs to know what is happening because they may not have ever had a puppy with a heart murmur before. Testing to find out what has caused a heart murmur can be very expensive and the breeder is only obliged to return the purchase price of the puppy if it is found to have a congential heart defect, not the cost of the testing. No puppy should ever be sold with a heart murmur. Some will disapear by 3-4 months of age but not after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Is the puppy from a registered breeder? If so I would return the puppy to them and let them deal with it. If it turns out to have a congenital heart defect then you should request a refund or replacement puppy. The breeder also needs to know what is happening because they may not have ever had a puppy with a heart murmur before. Testing to find out what has caused a heart murmur can be very expensive and the breeder is only obliged to return the purchase price of the puppy if it is found to have a congential heart defect, not the cost of the testing. No puppy should ever be sold with a heart murmur. Some will disapear by 3-4 months of age but not after that. I agree with this but I don't. It is easy to say return the dog get another but that dog grows on you. I just went through this/am going through this. We found Coco's when she was going to get desexed at 6 months. Her heart murmur was a 4-5. We did the $500 ultrasound and it wasn't good news. I did what I had to so I could keep her which was a $4500 heart operation. I didn't want a replacement dog I wanted her. I don't regret my choice one bit. Only regret I have is not getting pet insurance The only advise I have is if you wish to keep your dog and not return to the breeder, get the ultrasound it is the only way you will know how bad it is. I got a 2nd vets opinion before the ultrasound and they told me the same thing. If I didn't get the ultrasound she would have only had a few months to live and it would have been too late to operate. You could find it is not even that bad and the dog is fine to live with it or just needs medication. Before you return the dog please consider the ultrasound it could not be as bad as you think. If you return the dog the likely outcome is it will be PTS. Feel free to PM me any questions you have at all. I am sorry for the news I know how it feels Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lavendergirl Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Is the puppy from a registered breeder? If so I would return the puppy to them and let them deal with it. If it turns out to have a congenital heart defect then you should request a refund or replacement puppy. The breeder also needs to know what is happening because they may not have ever had a puppy with a heart murmur before. Testing to find out what has caused a heart murmur can be very expensive and the breeder is only obliged to return the purchase price of the puppy if it is found to have a congential heart defect, not the cost of the testing. No puppy should ever be sold with a heart murmur. Some will disapear by 3-4 months of age but not after that. I agree with this but I don't. It is easy to say return the dog get another but that dog grows on you. I just went through this/am going through this. We found Coco's when she was going to get desexed at 6 months. Her heart murmur was a 4-5. We did the $500 ultrasound and it wasn't good news. I did what I had to so I could keep her which was a $4500 heart operation. I didn't want a replacement dog I wanted her. I don't regret my choice one bit. Only regret I have is not getting pet insurance The only advise I have is if you wish to keep your dog and not return to the breeder, get the ultrasound it is the only way you will know how bad it is. I got a 2nd vets opinion before the ultrasound and they told me the same thing. If I didn't get the ultrasound she would have only had a few months to live and it would have been too late to operate. You could find it is not even that bad and the dog is fine to live with it or just needs medication. Before you return the dog please consider the ultrasound it could not be as bad as you think. If you return the dog the likely outcome is it will be PTS. Feel free to PM me any questions you have at all. I am sorry for the news I know how it feels Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Don't feel bad about that - chances are that it would not be covered anyway. It is true what you say about most people getting very attached quickly to the pup and finding it difficult to just "return it for a refund". I hope Coco is recovering well. OP I am sorry to hear about your situation and hope that it is not as bad as you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ineedsleep Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 thank you all for your comments, I am really in a bind as i have so many friends that are breeders saying he should never have been sold to us, take him back (we got two at the same time brother and sister) and that if I do keep him it will take attention away from his sister because he will need so much more care. You are right i have got so attached to them both, spending 24 hours a day 7 days a week with them what else do you do. We have ordered the ultrasound and hope that this sheds some more light on the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 thank you all for your comments, I am really in a bind as i have so many friends that are breeders saying he should never have been sold to us, take him back (we got two at the same time brother and sister) and that if I do keep him it will take attention away from his sister because he will need so much more care. You are right i have got so attached to them both, spending 24 hours a day 7 days a week with them what else do you do. We have ordered the ultrasound and hope that this sheds some more light on the problem. I had the same problem but the vet missed it and so did my vet so she was sold and thought to have been healthy. Have you contacted the breeder's vet to ask if they found it on his 6 week visit? I would. After the ultrasound you could find it won't affect him at all; some dogs have heart murmurs and live long healthy lives unaffected by it or he could just need medication. I have another dog and am currently fostering a dog (who hopefully will stay :)) and it has taken no attention off of them at all. The only care Coco needed was strict bed rest for 2 weeks and then slowly increase her exercising from there plus give her medication morning and night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ineedsleep Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 thank you all for your comments, I am really in a bind as i have so many friends that are breeders saying he should never have been sold to us, take him back (we got two at the same time brother and sister) and that if I do keep him it will take attention away from his sister because he will need so much more care. You are right i have got so attached to them both, spending 24 hours a day 7 days a week with them what else do you do. We have ordered the ultrasound and hope that this sheds some more light on the problem. I had the same problem but the vet missed it and so did my vet so she was sold and thought to have been healthy. Have you contacted the breeder's vet to ask if they found it on his 6 week visit? I would. After the ultrasound you could find it won't affect him at all; some dogs have heart murmurs and live long healthy lives unaffected by it or he could just need medication. I have another dog and am currently fostering a dog (who hopefully will stay :)) and it has taken no attention off of them at all. The only care Coco needed was strict bed rest for 2 weeks and then slowly increase her exercising from there plus give her medication morning and night. We were a bit like you went and picked the pups up, and we were told that the breeders vet thought he might have had a murmur but couldnt be sure, that he would grow out of it and that they thought they could hear it only on the right side of his chest. It is now audible on the left but far more pronounced on the right. I have spoken to the breeder since and at the moment has only offered to take him back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 thank you all for your comments, I am really in a bind as i have so many friends that are breeders saying he should never have been sold to us, take him back (we got two at the same time brother and sister) and that if I do keep him it will take attention away from his sister because he will need so much more care. You are right i have got so attached to them both, spending 24 hours a day 7 days a week with them what else do you do. We have ordered the ultrasound and hope that this sheds some more light on the problem. I had the same problem but the vet missed it and so did my vet so she was sold and thought to have been healthy. Have you contacted the breeder's vet to ask if they found it on his 6 week visit? I would. After the ultrasound you could find it won't affect him at all; some dogs have heart murmurs and live long healthy lives unaffected by it or he could just need medication. I have another dog and am currently fostering a dog (who hopefully will stay :)) and it has taken no attention off of them at all. The only care Coco needed was strict bed rest for 2 weeks and then slowly increase her exercising from there plus give her medication morning and night. We were a bit like you went and picked the pups up, and we were told that the breeders vet thought he might have had a murmur but couldnt be sure, that he would grow out of it and that they thought they could hear it only on the right side of his chest. It is now audible on the left but far more pronounced on the right. I have spoken to the breeder since and at the moment has only offered to take him back. The breeder should never have sold him with a possible heart murmur but even so they are only obliged to take him back. I know you think you are attached to him but you have only had him for a few weeks. Take him back, get your money back and concentrate on the other puppy. Taking him back would be sad but living with an ill dog can be very sad and when he does die you will be a lot more attached. Most breeders wouldn't have sold you two litter mates anyway. It is a lot of work to separate them so they have a chance to develop as individuals without one dominating the other. If one is likely to have a greatly shortened lifespan it is even more vital to separate them so they are not too attached to each other. If you really feel you cannot return him get the ultrasound and once the diagnosis is confirmed ask for a refund on the purchase price and sign an agreement not to seek any further money from them. Then either let him live out his life for as long as he has or spend a fortune on treatment if that is an option. Keep in mind heart medications are very expensive so if surgery isn't an option to fix the problem he may need to be on very expensive meds for several years. Puppies with heart defects can live a few months or a few years. Only those with very minor murmurs live longer than about 4-5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 thank you all for your comments, I am really in a bind as i have so many friends that are breeders saying he should never have been sold to us, take him back (we got two at the same time brother and sister) and that if I do keep him it will take attention away from his sister because he will need so much more care. You are right i have got so attached to them both, spending 24 hours a day 7 days a week with them what else do you do. We have ordered the ultrasound and hope that this sheds some more light on the problem. I had the same problem but the vet missed it and so did my vet so she was sold and thought to have been healthy. Have you contacted the breeder's vet to ask if they found it on his 6 week visit? I would. After the ultrasound you could find it won't affect him at all; some dogs have heart murmurs and live long healthy lives unaffected by it or he could just need medication. I have another dog and am currently fostering a dog (who hopefully will stay :)) and it has taken no attention off of them at all. The only care Coco needed was strict bed rest for 2 weeks and then slowly increase her exercising from there plus give her medication morning and night. We were a bit like you went and picked the pups up, and we were told that the breeders vet thought he might have had a murmur but couldnt be sure, that he would grow out of it and that they thought they could hear it only on the right side of his chest. It is now audible on the left but far more pronounced on the right. I have spoken to the breeder since and at the moment has only offered to take him back. The breeder should never have sold him with a possible heart murmur but even so they are only obliged to take him back. I know you think you are attached to him but you have only had him for a few weeks. Take him back, get your money back and concentrate on the other puppy. Taking him back would be sad but living with an ill dog can be very sad and when he does die you will be a lot more attached. Most breeders wouldn't have sold you two litter mates anyway. It is a lot of work to separate them so they have a chance to develop as individuals without one dominating the other. If one is likely to have a greatly shortened lifespan it is even more vital to separate them so they are not too attached to each other. If you really feel you cannot return him get the ultrasound and once the diagnosis is confirmed ask for a refund on the purchase price and sign an agreement not to seek any further money from them. Then either let him live out his life for as long as he has or spend a fortune on treatment if that is an option. Keep in mind heart medications are very expensive so if surgery isn't an option to fix the problem he may need to be on very expensive meds for several years. Puppies with heart defects can live a few months or a few years. Only those with very minor murmurs live longer than about 4-5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeimMe Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) I'm very new to this forum, but my parents have a Doberman with a heart problem so I feel compelled to comment on the cost of the meds required to keep her alive. She has an enlarged heart, so her situation is a bit different to your dog. Ebony has been very ill for about 4 years and it costs in excess of $200 a month to keep her alive, not including the many trips to the vet that she requires. The Vet said that she would only live for a max of 5 weeks after she was diagnosed as she was very ill even then. It's been a huge financial burden to them and I don't really think that the dog has enjoyed a very good quality of life for much of this time, especially in the last 12 months. My parents adore her too much to make the difficult decision to let her go. It's a tough call to make when you have bonded with a puppy, but living with a chronically ill dog is costly both finanically and emotionally. Edited January 17, 2012 by WeimMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasha Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Personally I would return the pup for a refund. Usually when you buy a pup its because you want to enjoy all the fun you can have, maybe do a dog sport, include it in fun activities etc. You wouldn't volunteer to spend possibly thousands of dollars on a dog because you feel sorry for it so you shouldn't feel that you should do so in this case. People should not judge you if you choose to return this pup. It is you that may end up spending a lot of money on this dog because you feel obliged or feel that others will think you are thoughtless, so it really comes down to what you can afford. Dogs can live a long time and I would rather enjoy my dog than be worried :should I let him do that, will he be ok when its hot, Have to lock him up when playing with other dog so he doesn't get excited and collapse" etc. Having a dog with a health problem really can affect a whole range of things. Who minds it when you go away, what happens if something bad happens when you are away, can't afford holidays because of the money you have spent on the dogs over the years. Yes you may be a little attached now, but like Dancinbcs said, you will be a lot more attached later when things start going wrong. I was speaking to a lady last week that just imported her 12 year old lab as she wanted him to enjoy the move to Australia. The flights really knocked him around and she said she actually feels bad now and sometimes we thing with our hearts not our heads and in hindsight she should have not put him through it. It comes down to what you can afford. Then again, you may do tests, and he does eventually grow out of it or anything. Good luck with the decision and hope it isn't too stressful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) thank you all for your comments, I am really in a bind as i have so many friends that are breeders saying he should never have been sold to us, take him back (we got two at the same time brother and sister) and that if I do keep him it will take attention away from his sister because he will need so much more care. You are right i have got so attached to them both, spending 24 hours a day 7 days a week with them what else do you do. We have ordered the ultrasound and hope that this sheds some more light on the problem. I had the same problem but the vet missed it and so did my vet so she was sold and thought to have been healthy. Have you contacted the breeder's vet to ask if they found it on his 6 week visit? I would. After the ultrasound you could find it won't affect him at all; some dogs have heart murmurs and live long healthy lives unaffected by it or he could just need medication. I have another dog and am currently fostering a dog (who hopefully will stay :)) and it has taken no attention off of them at all. The only care Coco needed was strict bed rest for 2 weeks and then slowly increase her exercising from there plus give her medication morning and night. We were a bit like you went and picked the pups up, and we were told that the breeders vet thought he might have had a murmur but couldnt be sure, that he would grow out of it and that they thought they could hear it only on the right side of his chest. It is now audible on the left but far more pronounced on the right. I have spoken to the breeder since and at the moment has only offered to take him back. That breeder should not have sold you that pup knowing it had a heart murmur I think that is cruel not only on the dog but to you! Now you could be faced with some tough decisions and had they not sold you the pup you wouldn't have to go through it! Just a thought I don't want to cause an uproar. Would anyone on her know; as the breeder sold the dog knowing it had a heart murmur do you think they should pay for the ultra sound or no as they are willing to take the dog back? I hope all goes well with the ultra sound and no decisions need to be made Let us know how he goes :) Edited January 17, 2012 by krystal&coco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 thank you all for your comments, I am really in a bind as i have so many friends that are breeders saying he should never have been sold to us, take him back (we got two at the same time brother and sister) and that if I do keep him it will take attention away from his sister because he will need so much more care. You are right i have got so attached to them both, spending 24 hours a day 7 days a week with them what else do you do. We have ordered the ultrasound and hope that this sheds some more light on the problem. I had the same problem but the vet missed it and so did my vet so she was sold and thought to have been healthy. Have you contacted the breeder's vet to ask if they found it on his 6 week visit? I would. After the ultrasound you could find it won't affect him at all; some dogs have heart murmurs and live long healthy lives unaffected by it or he could just need medication. I have another dog and am currently fostering a dog (who hopefully will stay :)) and it has taken no attention off of them at all. The only care Coco needed was strict bed rest for 2 weeks and then slowly increase her exercising from there plus give her medication morning and night. We were a bit like you went and picked the pups up, and we were told that the breeders vet thought he might have had a murmur but couldnt be sure, that he would grow out of it and that they thought they could hear it only on the right side of his chest. It is now audible on the left but far more pronounced on the right. I have spoken to the breeder since and at the moment has only offered to take him back. That breeder should not have sold you that pup knowing it had a heart murmur I think that is cruel not only on the dog but to you! Now you could be faced with some tough decisions and had they not sold you the pup you wouldn't have to go through it! Just a thought I don't want to cause an uproar. Would anyone on her know; as the breeder sold the dog knowing it had a heart murmur do you think they should pay for the ultra sound or no as they are willing to take the dog back? I hope all goes well with the ultra sound and no decisions need to be made Let us know how he goes :) If they had known about the heart murmur and not told the buyer then they would be more liable but they did disclose the information and the buyer opted to go ahead with buying the puppy. This is the point where the OP should have come looking for info. As they knew about the murmur I think they are only entitled to a refund. The breeder should have run the puppy on to see if the murmur corrected before offering it for sale but if it is the first heart murmur they have come across they may not have known that either. Heart murmurs can occur in any breed and are common in some but in most breeds they are pretty rare and breeders can breed for many years before coming across a puppy that is affected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redangel Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 It would be my understanding if present as a puppy a grade3/4 murmur would be audible. In my case the puppy affected had a grade 1 heart murmur and a specialist investigation couldnt pinpoint any structural faults. A followup 6 months later and the tests returned the same. I would like to think the breeder would give you a refund & should you want to take on the responsibility & expense of raising this pup (and the heartache) allow it to remain with you. That being said if the heart is degenerating so rapidly head over heart says that is a financial & emotional that you really need to consider. It is going to hurt no matter what or when. Is it fair to allow puppy to struggle? Only specialist veterinary advice and your situation can decide these things. I agree the breeder should have managed the pup to properly identify the situation & prognosis. Up to now has the breeder been supportive at all to the pups development post purchase? Good luck with the testing, hope things work out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) thank you all for your comments, I am really in a bind as i have so many friends that are breeders saying he should never have been sold to us, take him back (we got two at the same time brother and sister) and that if I do keep him it will take attention away from his sister because he will need so much more care. You are right i have got so attached to them both, spending 24 hours a day 7 days a week with them what else do you do. We have ordered the ultrasound and hope that this sheds some more light on the problem. I had the same problem but the vet missed it and so did my vet so she was sold and thought to have been healthy. Have you contacted the breeder's vet to ask if they found it on his 6 week visit? I would. After the ultrasound you could find it won't affect him at all; some dogs have heart murmurs and live long healthy lives unaffected by it or he could just need medication. I have another dog and am currently fostering a dog (who hopefully will stay :)) and it has taken no attention off of them at all. The only care Coco needed was strict bed rest for 2 weeks and then slowly increase her exercising from there plus give her medication morning and night. We were a bit like you went and picked the pups up, and we were told that the breeders vet thought he might have had a murmur but couldnt be sure, that he would grow out of it and that they thought they could hear it only on the right side of his chest. It is now audible on the left but far more pronounced on the right. I have spoken to the breeder since and at the moment has only offered to take him back. That breeder should not have sold you that pup knowing it had a heart murmur I think that is cruel not only on the dog but to you! Now you could be faced with some tough decisions and had they not sold you the pup you wouldn't have to go through it! Just a thought I don't want to cause an uproar. Would anyone on her know; as the breeder sold the dog knowing it had a heart murmur do you think they should pay for the ultra sound or no as they are willing to take the dog back? I hope all goes well with the ultra sound and no decisions need to be made Let us know how he goes :) When I purchased my first Cavalier she had passed her 6 week health test with no murmur detected. When we bought her at 9 weeks we took her to our vets for a once over and he detected a Grade 1 heart murmur, which he told us could be an "innocent murmur" in which case would clear up by around 12 weeks. We told the breeder and said we would let her know what the outcome was. Fortunately it was an "innocent Murmur" which was gone by 12 weeks and at 4 years of age she is still heart clear. I'm not sure what grade of murmur was first detected in the puppy that now has a 3/4 murmur but it is possible they believed it to be an "innocent murmur' and that it was not a Grade 3/4 when the puppy was sold. Either way I personally, as a breeder would have kept the puppy in my care until 12 weeks and not have sold it on, knowing it could be a potential murmur that may deteriorate. But then I breed a dog that is know for heart problems so I would have all the alarm bells going off. I don't know what breed your puppy is (?) so if it is a breed not know for heart mumurs the breeder may not have been as alert to the potential worsening of it's condition. If the breeder sold the puppy and fully disclosed the fact that it had a heart murmur what arrangement did the buyer and the breeder have? Was it a lower grade murmur when first sold? Was it expected not to worsen? Was the price of the sick puppy reduced? Just curious how this could (because it shouldn't have really) come about? Edited January 17, 2012 by LizT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ineedsleep Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Thank you to all who gave me your thoughts and advise, the puppy is being returned to the breeder. Very sad at our house at the moment, but in the long run best for all concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 ineedsleep.. You have made a sensible decision .altho it feels the worst decision... So sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Thank you to all who gave me your thoughts and advise, the puppy is being returned to the breeder. Very sad at our house at the moment, but in the long run best for all concerned. Give your other puppy a hug and and all your love, it will make you feel a little better. At least this way the breeder will learn the dire consequences of letting a puppy with a detectable heart murmur leave their care. I'm sure they too will be devestated having raised the puppy for 8 weeks but it is the down side of breeding that sometimes things go very wrong. As a breeder you need to ensure that any problems are not passed on to puppy buyers if you possibly can because that makes it all much worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) Thank you to all who gave me your thoughts and advise, the puppy is being returned to the breeder. Very sad at our house at the moment, but in the long run best for all concerned. Sorry you had to go through this it is very hard. Just a question would a breeder in a situation like this get the ultrasound or just have the pup PTS? EDIT: To ellaborate what I actually wanted to know Edited January 19, 2012 by krystal&coco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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