sandgrubber Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Not to mention professional handlers. Here's from the website of they guy who handled Malachy. http://www.pequest.com/ProfessionalHandling.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Pedigrees are great. Careful breeding is wonderful. Breeding for some sort of charisma that revolves around 'cuteness' and ignores health is absolute rubbish. You are blissfully ignorant to how responsible & passionate Breeders think and act Sandgrubber, you continue to push your barrow full of hatred and disdain, and aim your sights on anyone that dares to set foot in the show ring or celebrate the wonderful creatures that are dogs. Was it you we saw bundled off as the BIS judge was introduced. What was it on the banner that you were going to hold against your heaving breast. If you honestly believe that all Breeders are in the same boat, that no one gives a damn about health and welfare then you do not mix with right people. I do not think that there is a Breeder here on this forum that would deny that we have to strive for healthy sound animals as the pinnacle of achievement. It would be possible for anyone with depth of knowledge of any of the breeds represented to sit and find fault with those on show, there is no perfect dog and we all acknowledge that. We however chose to celebrate the positive, the beauty and the occasion. You cannot even allow some acknowledgement of beautiful, well trained, well conditioned, happy dogs, without spitting your hatred and spreading your poison. What a negative sour soul you must be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Daisy Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Let it wash its face like a cat with its paws, let it be dainty in its food, that it shall be known for a Royal and Imperial dog by its fastidiousness. I loved this description Mita. The only part I would argue would be this paragraph. I still remember watching my friends Peke eat and put his whole face in the bowl, snuffling around like a piglet as he walked in circles around the bowl only to come up with his whole face covered with food. Amazing dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamSnag Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Loved the dachie too :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I admit, I'm prejudice and no devotee of big coats . . .but Are you sure that's a dog and not something out of StarWars? I thought dogs had noses and legs :laugh:. Can't remember ever seeing a dog who didn't move at all in the joints when picked up. You'd almost think him a plush toy. Seeing such an overdone representative of the breed winning the big national show makes it easier to understand why pedigree registrations are declining and animal rights organisations are gaining ground. It is quite obvious that you have no knowledge of the history or purpose of this breed, or even seen an extension of the standard, yet are prepared to air your lack of knowledge to denigrate this breed. The peke's history goes back centuries, he was not bred to course, or race, or retrieve, or fight. He was bred to be a companion, he was only allowed to be owned by royalty, he was cared for by eunuchs and slave girls. He is supposed to look exactly as Malachy looks. And he is not overdone. He is a pekinese. The owner did give some explanation of the standard, did you not hear that? It is really sad for you that you cannot appreciate a wonderful example of a breed you don't own, and I have to wonder whether that is due to lack of eye. Most of us don't need to know anything about pekes to see that this is a very very good dog - whatever breed. Pedigree registrations declining and animal rights flourishing are certainly not helped by people such as you, who with demonstrably little knowledge are happy to criticize other breeds because you do not like them or understand them. Unfortunately that attitude hinders all breeds, including your own, which will also be for the chop when the chop comes. If you don't like purebred dogs, and you obviously don't, get some other sort of dogs. If you don't like the way some dogs are bred, or how some dogs look, put your money where your mouth is and do it better yourself. Then come back and tell us all about it. Pekes are great in the ring with their lovely roll - but not if you have a breed "behind" them. :laugh: FYI I just have to share this copy & pasted responce on a forum when someone said they could not help but understand what rescues groups & animal rights people are going on about when a clearly over done example of an already health challanged breed wins BIS. It is quite obvious that you have no knowledge of the history or purpose of this breed, or even seen an extension of the standard, yet are prepared to air your lack of knowledge to denigrate this breed. The peke’s history goes back centuries, he was not bred to course, or race, or retrieve, or fight. He was bred to be a companion, he was only allowed to be owned by royalty, he was cared for by eunuchs and slave girls. He is supposed to look exactly as Malachy looks. And he is not overdone. He is a pekinese. The owner did give some explanation of the standard, did you not hear that? It is really sad for you that you cannot appreciate a wonderful example of a breed you don’t own, and I have to wonder whether that is due to lack of eye. Most of us don’t need to know anything about pekes to see that this is a very very good dog – whatever breed. Pedigree registrations declining and animal rights flourishing are certainly not helped by people such as you, who with demonstrably little knowledge are happy to criticize other breeds because you do not like them or understand them. Unfortunately that attitude hinders all breeds, including your own, which will also be for the chop when the chop comes. If you don’t like purebred dogs, and you obviously don’t, get some other sort of dogs. If you don’t like the way some dogs are bred, or how some dogs look, put your money where your mouth is and do it better yourself. Then come back and tell us all about it. Pekes are great in the ring with their lovely roll – but not if you have a breed “behind” them. Top Well dear me see it’s ok that the dog can hardley get about because it was never meant for more than a lap & companion dog & to then go on to doubt the poster has an eye for a dog was ironic to say the least. If anyone is lacking anything to do with eyes it was the poster who made this responce, are they blind how is this an honest example of a Peke unchanged in type from the origan centries ago??? Another reply was that you can’t help but notice he’s a quality example of his breed even though Peke’s where not their cup of tea so to speak. Yep he’s a quality example of the absolute mess some breeders are making of many a breed in my eyes but thats the only type of quality I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Not to mention professional handlers. Here's from the website of they guy who handled Malachy. http://www.pequest.com/ProfessionalHandling.htm He also co-owns Malachy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benshiva Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Not to mention professional handlers. Here's from the website of they guy who handled Malachy. http://www.pequest.c...nalHandling.htm What about professional handlers?? Lucky them, they get to make a living out of being around DOGS!!! Lucky lucky lucky!!! I can't believe how negative you are. What a shame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benshiva Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Pedigrees are great. Careful breeding is wonderful. Breeding for some sort of charisma that revolves around 'cuteness' and ignores health is absolute rubbish. You are blissfully ignorant to how responsible & passionate Breeders think and act Sandgrubber, you continue to push your barrow full of hatred and disdain, and aim your sights on anyone that dares to set foot in the show ring or celebrate the wonderful creatures that are dogs. Was it you we saw bundled off as the BIS judge was introduced. What was it on the banner that you were going to hold against your heaving breast. If you honestly believe that all Breeders are in the same boat, that no one gives a damn about health and welfare then you do not mix with right people. I do not think that there is a Breeder here on this forum that would deny that we have to strive for healthy sound animals as the pinnacle of achievement. It would be possible for anyone with depth of knowledge of any of the breeds represented to sit and find fault with those on show, there is no perfect dog and we all acknowledge that. We however chose to celebrate the positive, the beauty and the occasion. You cannot even allow some acknowledgement of beautiful, well trained, well conditioned, happy dogs, without spitting your hatred and spreading your poison. What a negative sour soul you must be. Very well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benshiva Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I admit, I'm prejudice and no devotee of big coats . . .but Are you sure that's a dog and not something out of StarWars? I thought dogs had noses and legs :laugh:. Can't remember ever seeing a dog who didn't move at all in the joints when picked up. You'd almost think him a plush toy. Seeing such an overdone representative of the breed winning the big national show makes it easier to understand why pedigree registrations are declining and animal rights organisations are gaining ground. It is quite obvious that you have no knowledge of the history or purpose of this breed, or even seen an extension of the standard, yet are prepared to air your lack of knowledge to denigrate this breed. The peke's history goes back centuries, he was not bred to course, or race, or retrieve, or fight. He was bred to be a companion, he was only allowed to be owned by royalty, he was cared for by eunuchs and slave girls. He is supposed to look exactly as Malachy looks. And he is not overdone. He is a pekinese. The owner did give some explanation of the standard, did you not hear that? It is really sad for you that you cannot appreciate a wonderful example of a breed you don't own, and I have to wonder whether that is due to lack of eye. Most of us don't need to know anything about pekes to see that this is a very very good dog - whatever breed. Pedigree registrations declining and animal rights flourishing are certainly not helped by people such as you, who with demonstrably little knowledge are happy to criticize other breeds because you do not like them or understand them. Unfortunately that attitude hinders all breeds, including your own, which will also be for the chop when the chop comes. If you don't like purebred dogs, and you obviously don't, get some other sort of dogs. If you don't like the way some dogs are bred, or how some dogs look, put your money where your mouth is and do it better yourself. Then come back and tell us all about it. Pekes are great in the ring with their lovely roll - but not if you have a breed "behind" them. :laugh: FYI I just have to share this copy & pasted responce on a forum when someone said they could not help but understand what rescues groups & animal rights people are going on about when a clearly over done example of an already health challanged breed wins BIS. It is quite obvious that you have no knowledge of the history or purpose of this breed, or even seen an extension of the standard, yet are prepared to air your lack of knowledge to denigrate this breed. The peke's history goes back centuries, he was not bred to course, or race, or retrieve, or fight. He was bred to be a companion, he was only allowed to be owned by royalty, he was cared for by eunuchs and slave girls. He is supposed to look exactly as Malachy looks. And he is not overdone. He is a pekinese. The owner did give some explanation of the standard, did you not hear that? It is really sad for you that you cannot appreciate a wonderful example of a breed you don't own, and I have to wonder whether that is due to lack of eye. Most of us don't need to know anything about pekes to see that this is a very very good dog – whatever breed. Pedigree registrations declining and animal rights flourishing are certainly not helped by people such as you, who with demonstrably little knowledge are happy to criticize other breeds because you do not like them or understand them. Unfortunately that attitude hinders all breeds, including your own, which will also be for the chop when the chop comes. If you don't like purebred dogs, and you obviously don't, get some other sort of dogs. If you don't like the way some dogs are bred, or how some dogs look, put your money where your mouth is and do it better yourself. Then come back and tell us all about it. Pekes are great in the ring with their lovely roll – but not if you have a breed "behind" them. Top Well dear me see it's ok that the dog can hardley get about because it was never meant for more than a lap & companion dog & to then go on to doubt the poster has an eye for a dog was ironic to say the least. If anyone is lacking anything to do with eyes it was the poster who made this responce, are they blind how is this an honest example of a Peke unchanged in type from the origan centries ago??? Another reply was that you can't help but notice he's a quality example of his breed even though Peke's where not their cup of tea so to speak. Yep he's a quality example of the absolute mess some breeders are making of many a breed in my eyes but thats the only type of quality I can see. I was the one that said he was a quality example of his breed and HE IS!!!! He didn't look to me like he was having any trouble getting around that HUGE ring. Happy to own that comment and RESTATE, he's a bloody gorgeous DOG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) Not to mention professional handlers. Here's from the website of they guy who handled Malachy. http://www.pequest.com/ProfessionalHandling.htm What does the handler have to do with anything? I am interested in getting Sandgrubber's opinion of the other dogs in the BIS line up. Edited February 18, 2012 by Sheridan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I admit, I'm prejudice and no devotee of big coats . . .but Are you sure that's a dog and not something out of StarWars? I thought dogs had noses and legs :laugh:. Can't remember ever seeing a dog who didn't move at all in the joints when picked up. You'd almost think him a plush toy. Seeing such an overdone representative of the breed winning the big national show makes it easier to understand why pedigree registrations are declining and animal rights organisations are gaining ground. It is quite obvious that you have no knowledge of the history or purpose of this breed, or even seen an extension of the standard, yet are prepared to air your lack of knowledge to denigrate this breed. The peke's history goes back centuries, he was not bred to course, or race, or retrieve, or fight. He was bred to be a companion, he was only allowed to be owned by royalty, he was cared for by eunuchs and slave girls. He is supposed to look exactly as Malachy looks. And he is not overdone. He is a pekinese. The owner did give some explanation of the standard, did you not hear that? It is really sad for you that you cannot appreciate a wonderful example of a breed you don't own, and I have to wonder whether that is due to lack of eye. Most of us don't need to know anything about pekes to see that this is a very very good dog - whatever breed. Pedigree registrations declining and animal rights flourishing are certainly not helped by people such as you, who with demonstrably little knowledge are happy to criticize other breeds because you do not like them or understand them. Unfortunately that attitude hinders all breeds, including your own, which will also be for the chop when the chop comes. If you don't like purebred dogs, and you obviously don't, get some other sort of dogs. If you don't like the way some dogs are bred, or how some dogs look, put your money where your mouth is and do it better yourself. Then come back and tell us all about it. Pekes are great in the ring with their lovely roll - but not if you have a breed "behind" them. :laugh: FYI I just have to share this copy & pasted responce on a forum when someone said they could not help but understand what rescues groups & animal rights people are going on about when a clearly over done example of an already health challanged breed wins BIS. It is quite obvious that you have no knowledge of the history or purpose of this breed, or even seen an extension of the standard, yet are prepared to air your lack of knowledge to denigrate this breed. The peke's history goes back centuries, he was not bred to course, or race, or retrieve, or fight. He was bred to be a companion, he was only allowed to be owned by royalty, he was cared for by eunuchs and slave girls. He is supposed to look exactly as Malachy looks. And he is not overdone. He is a pekinese. The owner did give some explanation of the standard, did you not hear that? It is really sad for you that you cannot appreciate a wonderful example of a breed you don't own, and I have to wonder whether that is due to lack of eye. Most of us don't need to know anything about pekes to see that this is a very very good dog – whatever breed. Pedigree registrations declining and animal rights flourishing are certainly not helped by people such as you, who with demonstrably little knowledge are happy to criticize other breeds because you do not like them or understand them. Unfortunately that attitude hinders all breeds, including your own, which will also be for the chop when the chop comes. If you don't like purebred dogs, and you obviously don't, get some other sort of dogs. If you don't like the way some dogs are bred, or how some dogs look, put your money where your mouth is and do it better yourself. Then come back and tell us all about it. Pekes are great in the ring with their lovely roll – but not if you have a breed "behind" them. Top Well dear me see it's ok that the dog can hardley get about because it was never meant for more than a lap & companion dog & to then go on to doubt the poster has an eye for a dog was ironic to say the least. If anyone is lacking anything to do with eyes it was the poster who made this responce, are they blind how is this an honest example of a Peke unchanged in type from the origan centries ago??? Another reply was that you can't help but notice he's a quality example of his breed even though Peke's where not their cup of tea so to speak. Yep he's a quality example of the absolute mess some breeders are making of many a breed in my eyes but thats the only type of quality I can see. I was the one that said he was a quality example of his breed and HE IS!!!! He didn't look to me like he was having any trouble getting around that HUGE ring. Happy to own that comment and RESTATE, he's a bloody gorgeous DOG! I didn't write that either so not to confuse anyone. I found that on the link that was posted in here... He is definitely gorgeous but I like peke's so I am a bit biased :) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Not to mention professional handlers. Here's from the website of they guy who handled Malachy. http://www.pequest.com/ProfessionalHandling.htm What does the handler have to do with anything? I am interested in getting Sandgrubber's opinion of the other dogs in the BIS line up. Seeing as the link goes directly to what the handler charges page probably doesn't like the cost he charges. But seeing as he co-owns Malachy it's irrelevant in the show he just did. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I can't argue with SOME of Sandgrubber's assertions. SOME breeds have become exaggerated and their health has suffered as a result. On the other hand, it should be possible to produce a sound working dog that doesn't have a head like a smashed crab. Somewhere in all of this there is some middle ground. But its readily apparent that Sandgrubber has no interest in finding it. I don't bang on about the evils of force fetching and e-collar training on working retriever forums because: A. I know bugger all about training such dogs B. It's clear there are a lot of passionate people who won't welcome an interloper with no real experience of the hobby telling em how it should be. Pull your head in Sandgrubber. You are entitled to your opinion but your method of expressing it is offensive. Not all show dogs are exaggerated unhealthy disaster areas. It might be a good starting point to acknowledge it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I thought the wire haired dachshund was stunning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 The Dachie was gorgeous! That beautiful head and expression! And the wagging-est tail in the line up! :D We can find historical pictures to prove whatever point we like about older breeds. In my breed for exmple I can find photos from the 19th to early 20th century of both lesser and more heavily coated examples - so using either to prove the breed carries more or less coat these days is a moot point. In Pekes, yes some examples DO carry excessive coat, that interferes with their movement. It can be a problem in the breed, and changes to several Peke standards have been made accordingly. Malachy doesn't, I can see his legs and under him as he is walking. He has a lovely face, with a broken nose roll and gorgeous clear eyes not obscured. He has great open nostrils for a toy brachy breed and breathes without difficulty. Pekes do move fast when they want to, and are complete clowns gambolling around. But the gait they are judged at is a walk, which shows the characteristic roll well, which also indicates they have correct and sound structure. We would'nt expect a Chihuahua to get around the ring at the same speed as a GSD, so why would we expect it of a Peke? Here is another couple of historical peke pics, and if you add in modern coat care, better brushes, shampoos, diet etc these dogs would probably carry slightly more than pictured. I'm pretty certain human hair can be better looked after these days than over a hundred years ago. That doesn't mean we've been breeding any differently, it can be environmentally affected as well. When trying to attack wlefare issues in dogs, it is best to have some knowledge on the subject before spouting off, lest all credibility goes out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 It was very easy to see the body shape of the Peke, the majority of the coat over his hindquarter was from his very profuse tail which is exactly what the standard calls for, I did not consider him to be overly coated at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) I understand why you showie folks are so defensive. You subscribe to a tradition that has a lot to answer for. The Peke is on par with the pug in terms of brachycephalic health concerns. The breed as shown in modern shows has little to do with the original breed. . . . no question that competition has warped the breed to a less healthy conformation. Above is Lootie, one of the original Pekingese dogs taken from the 1860 British raid of the Chinese Summer Palaces in Beijing. Lootie was given to Queen Victoria as a gift. Note: Lootie (name reflects being looted from the Summer Palace) has short, but not collapsed, muzzle, and moderate legs and coat. Below are three Pekes form a leading UK Peke breeder in 1899. What has the show fancy done to this breed? Lootie's appearance does not match the 'premium' features described by the Empress herself....a strict breeding manager of her small 'Lion Dogs' in that very Chinese Summer Palace. There were other breed types in the Palace & its kennels, including Pugs and Shih Tzus. Even Tibetan Spaniels were present in China & only ever given by the Tibetans to royal courts or monasteries. There is no evidence that Lootie was actually one of the Empress's premium little 'Lion Dogs' (called Pekingese by the British). As I said, he doesn't entirely match what the Empress wrote....but Malachy would be closer, so would Aloysha's Peke pics. (I've posted the Empress's description earlier). Lootie was nicked by British soldiers when they over-ran the Palace. He was not picked out by show judges basing their choice on the Empress's standards for a premium dog. At that time, other eastern dogs had a general 'look'. As a result, Lootie has a similar look to some Japanese Chins and Tibetan Spaniels of the period and location. And which may have been in the huge Palace precincts and/or kennels. As I understand it, a great number of the Empress's actual dogs were killed by the invaders. Also is there any evidence that Malachy is 'unhealthy' relative to the activities in his lifestyle? As the Empress pointed out, these dogs are lapdogs, or better still, sleeve dogs, living an ordered & well-cared for life as (largely) a woman's indoor pet. Would any of Malachy's features make him unhealthy living that way? All dogs, just like people, have physiques which lend themselves to different activities. No one screams to high heaven when sporting coaches or dance teachers, look at body features in relation to how well they can carry out certain activities....or not. Not all dogs have the physical attributes to go racing after their owner's galloping horse.....or even go on a brisk 3 mile walk. Just as not all people have the physical attributes (long arms & long legs) to do competitive rowing. BTW, Sandgrubber my opinion is that you made a case based on what you considered to be evidence. I don't agree with it, in its entirety, as I looked at some other evidence and comparisons. But I found you were civil in what you had to say. Edited February 18, 2012 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I think the peke has come in for so much criticism because people can't actually tell the shape of the body under the hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Such is te case wit many coated breeds. Can you tell on a Shihtzu? Or a Samoyed? Or a Poodle? (except fr the bare bits of course!) The judges use their hands for a reason. Coat can be grown, or trimmed, to give all sorts of visual illusions as to what is underneath, good judges feel their way past what they can, or can't see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I think the peke has come in for so much criticism because people can't actually tell the shape of the body under the hair. Maybe they need to watch the video again, his body is clearly visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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