Steve Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Ultimately the decision lies with the breeder the same as the decision to euthanise oops crossbreds or some of a very large litter in breeds that are hard to sell. These are some of the tough decisions breeders have to make depending on how likely the puppies are to get good homes, not just any homes. Yes, that's why topics like this are important to discuss, even though they can get emotive. Nobody wants to put down puppies they have bred. Looking from another point of view, why would a person choose to buy a pet of higher health risk than its littermates? You would hope that puppy buyers want their dogs to have as long and comfortable lives as possible and would want to buy from breeders that felt that supplying only healthy, quality pups to puppy buyers was an important part of their breeding ethic. I'm a little confused. Is this comment saying that white boxers have a higher health risk? I thought that had not yet been established. I have asked whether white boxers are more prone to cancer. No-one seems to know. I think it has been established that white boxers are not usually deaf. PD They're definitely more prone to skin cancer, due to being more prone to sunburn. I'm sure I've read some articles about them also being prone to other cancer, but not 100% sure. every white boxer I have seen from a flashy x flashy has lovely black noses and black rims around the eyes they have no more risk of sun cancers than any other white dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Thanks everyone for their feedback, my eyes are certainly open a lot wider. I will breed Augustine in about 10 months when I move into the new place with a big yard. If she does have white puppies I will gladly raise them (spaded), deaf or not I am happy to take on that responsibility and put in the hours and possibly vet bills. If that means that I cannot be a registered breeder then so be it. While I can appreciate some of the reasons why people euthanise white boxers I can't do it. Some of the most well behaved gorgeous boxers I have met have been white and if the circumstances allow then they deserve a chance like all other puppies. All you have to do is ensure you mate plain to flashy and you wont have the issue to face. simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Ultimately the decision lies with the breeder the same as the decision to euthanise oops crossbreds or some of a very large litter in breeds that are hard to sell. These are some of the tough decisions breeders have to make depending on how likely the puppies are to get good homes, not just any homes. Yes, that's why topics like this are important to discuss, even though they can get emotive. Nobody wants to put down puppies they have bred. Looking from another point of view, why would a person choose to buy a pet of higher health risk than its littermates? You would hope that puppy buyers want their dogs to have as long and comfortable lives as possible and would want to buy from breeders that felt that supplying only healthy, quality pups to puppy buyers was an important part of their breeding ethic. i thought I read earlier that registered breeders werent allowed to sell theit white pups. So give them to a rescue organisation. There is always deaf dogs going through the rescue world and all manage to find homes. If they are desexed, chipped, vaccinated and well versed in deaf dog care then i see that as a good thing. Not a bloody chance on earth - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Fostering a deaf puppy has it's challenges... and is certainly not a job that one would want on a regular basis. With proper management, a deaf puppy can grow up to have a happy and healthy life, but it's not just about the overall health of these animals - deaf dogs cannot hear a car coming at them, can't hear you trying to call them back if they ever get out of the yard (even by accident), can't hear warning growls from other dogs, etc... they are going to need an owner who is constantly aware of things that the dog is not - and those are few and far between... I understand that Bartok's suggestion was made in good faith - but maybe a bit more thinking could have gone into it... rescue is NOT an overflow backup for breeders to "place" unregisterable pups brought about by mating dogs unsuited to producing full litters of "acceptable" pups. My deaf BC cross foster pup is perfectly normal and healthy in every respect, but being deaf is definitely not a big selling point... and I'm sure that is why he's not had a lot of interest yet. He is also as cute as all get out, so I know people are looking at his PetRecue profile... lol! He would probably do really well in an obedience/agility trialling home, but again, those are few and far between, and they probably prefer hearing dogs too... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Sorry if this is getting too off topic as I obviously don't own a boxer. But for reference here is my dog as a wee pup compared to now. The visible pigment has come in over time. There would have been no way to tell as a baby whether she'd be deaf or not (except that she obviously responded to noises from a young age). But your dog has a huge amount of pigment and was never at any risk for deafness - its a different gene. White boxers dont have anywhere near that amount of colour. Sorry, plenty of Aussies with white ears have some degree of deafness. Technically yes, it is a slightly different gene but it essentially works the same way regarding pigment in the inner ear. Plenty of white boxers, including some posted in this thread, have way more skin pigment than my girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Sorry if this is getting too off topic as I obviously don't own a boxer. But for reference here is my dog as a wee pup compared to now. The visible pigment has come in over time. There would have been no way to tell as a baby whether she'd be deaf or not (except that she obviously responded to noises from a young age). But your dog has a huge amount of pigment and was never at any risk for deafness - its a different gene. White boxers dont have anywhere near that amount of colour. Sorry, plenty of Aussies with white ears have some degree of deafness. Technically yes, it is a slightly different gene but it essentially works the same way regarding pigment in the inner ear. Plenty of white boxers, including some posted in this thread, have way more skin pigment than my girl. O.K. I take your word for it I dont know much about Aussies but if a boxer had that much pigment I doubt the breeder would be concerned about deafness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Sorry if this is getting too off topic as I obviously don't own a boxer. But for reference here is my dog as a wee pup compared to now. The visible pigment has come in over time. There would have been no way to tell as a baby whether she'd be deaf or not (except that she obviously responded to noises from a young age). But your dog has a huge amount of pigment and was never at any risk for deafness - its a different gene. White boxers dont have anywhere near that amount of colour. Sorry, plenty of Aussies with white ears have some degree of deafness. Technically yes, it is a slightly different gene but it essentially works the same way regarding pigment in the inner ear. Plenty of white boxers, including some posted in this thread, have way more skin pigment than my girl. O.K. I take your word for it I dont know much about Aussies but if a boxer had that much pigment I doubt the breeder would be concerned about deafness. When she was born she had NO pigment on her head at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Sorry if this is getting too off topic as I obviously don't own a boxer. But for reference here is my dog as a wee pup compared to now. The visible pigment has come in over time. There would have been no way to tell as a baby whether she'd be deaf or not (except that she obviously responded to noises from a young age). But your dog has a huge amount of pigment and was never at any risk for deafness - its a different gene. White boxers dont have anywhere near that amount of colour. Sorry, plenty of Aussies with white ears have some degree of deafness. Technically yes, it is a slightly different gene but it essentially works the same way regarding pigment in the inner ear. Plenty of white boxers, including some posted in this thread, have way more skin pigment than my girl. O.K. I take your word for it I dont know much about Aussies but if a boxer had that much pigment I doubt the breeder would be concerned about deafness. When she was born she had NO pigment on her head at all. But she had colour on her body . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Sorry if this is getting too off topic as I obviously don't own a boxer. But for reference here is my dog as a wee pup compared to now. The visible pigment has come in over time. There would have been no way to tell as a baby whether she'd be deaf or not (except that she obviously responded to noises from a young age). But your dog has a huge amount of pigment and was never at any risk for deafness - its a different gene. White boxers dont have anywhere near that amount of colour. Sorry, plenty of Aussies with white ears have some degree of deafness. Technically yes, it is a slightly different gene but it essentially works the same way regarding pigment in the inner ear. Plenty of white boxers, including some posted in this thread, have way more skin pigment than my girl. O.K. I take your word for it I dont know much about Aussies but if a boxer had that much pigment I doubt the breeder would be concerned about deafness. When she was born she had NO pigment on her head at all. But she had colour on her body . Just about all dogs with pigment on their noses, around eyes and small spots or freckles DON'T have these present at birth. They develop over the first few months. Some spots and freckles don't even show as adults until they have their summer coats. This is certainly the case in Cavaliers. The large areas are present at birth and when first born are often an adult colour that appears lighter as the puppy fluff comes through, then when that moults you have the original colour back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Sorry if this is getting too off topic as I obviously don't own a boxer. But for reference here is my dog as a wee pup compared to now. The visible pigment has come in over time. There would have been no way to tell as a baby whether she'd be deaf or not (except that she obviously responded to noises from a young age). But your dog has a huge amount of pigment and was never at any risk for deafness - its a different gene. White boxers dont have anywhere near that amount of colour. Sorry, plenty of Aussies with white ears have some degree of deafness. Technically yes, it is a slightly different gene but it essentially works the same way regarding pigment in the inner ear. Plenty of white boxers, including some posted in this thread, have way more skin pigment than my girl. O.K. I take your word for it I dont know much about Aussies but if a boxer had that much pigment I doubt the breeder would be concerned about deafness. When she was born she had NO pigment on her head at all. But she had colour on her body . But body colour has no relation to deafness or health issues... ear/eye/general face pigment does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Dalmatians are born white if that helps join the dots :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I don't even know what we are arguing anymore. My point was I don't agree with euthanising pups because they COULD be deaf when the reality is they may be perfectly fine. My breeder didn't know if my girl would be deaf or not, but she gave her a chance, and I am very grateful that she did (she was from two normally marked parents). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I don't even know what we are arguing anymore. My point was I don't agree with euthanising pups because they COULD be deaf when the reality is they may be perfectly fine. My breeder didn't know if my girl would be deaf or not, but she gave her a chance, and I am very grateful that she did (she was from two normally marked parents). I agree but in the case of boxers white boxers should never be born and they could still allow white boxers to be used for breeding as long as they restrict what they can breed with. If they put the restrictions on - no flashy to flashy - no white to flashy then there never would be any white boxers and no - one would need to be concerned. It makes no sense to me to allow flashy to flashy and expect them to make them disappear when all they need to do is restrict that mating and never get them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nawnim Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) ... Edited June 9, 2012 by padraic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) I don't even know what we are arguing anymore. My point was I don't agree with euthanising pups because they COULD be deaf when the reality is they may be perfectly fine. My breeder didn't know if my girl would be deaf or not, but she gave her a chance, and I am very grateful that she did (she was from two normally marked parents). Wuffles, Excess white in a border collie does not always precipitate deafness. It increases the risk of it happening and in some lines, it seems to occur more than others. I myself have produced half white face border collies from two solid colours. I BAER tested them at 6 weeks as I am lucky enough to live near the UNI who has the machine to do it. Siblings: Parents: The baby photo you posted, while hard to see does show facial pigment.It does take a lot longer for pigment to come through and what Steve says is true. Some freckles and other body pigment may not come in until they are an adult. I have a red.white boy here who did not get red freckles on his nose until he was nearly 2 1/2 years old, yet he has really good pigment elsewhere. Please also do not confuse white coat pigmentation with skin pigmentation as this is different. Using the same example, in simple terms the red/white border collie can be liver skin pigment (as often seen in the nose pigment) or black pigmented, yet still be a dark or light colour pigment in the body. Ultimately, it is the breeder's choice whether they wish to euthanise deaf puppies or risk placing that burden onto the community. We are really stuck between a catch 22 situation of "damned if we do" or "Damned if we don't". We get howled down for producing puppies with issues that may not have been forseen or helped, and we also get howled down if we decide to euthanise these puppies and be responsible for the animals we breed. ETA: Red/whites can be born near white at birth and darken with age. Coat and some body pigments can take time to come through. Edited March 28, 2012 by Mystiqview Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I don't even know what we are arguing anymore. My point was I don't agree with euthanising pups because they COULD be deaf when the reality is they may be perfectly fine. My breeder didn't know if my girl would be deaf or not, but she gave her a chance, and I am very grateful that she did (she was from two normally marked parents). I agree but in the case of boxers white boxers should never be born and they could still allow white boxers to be used for breeding as long as they restrict what they can breed with. If they put the restrictions on - no flashy to flashy - no white to flashy then there never would be any white boxers and no - one would need to be concerned. It makes no sense to me to allow flashy to flashy and expect them to make them disappear when all they need to do is restrict that mating and never get them. If that is all it takes Steve, why don't they do it. I just don't get the controlling body sometimes. We cannot do Merle to Merle mating for this reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) I don't even know what we are arguing anymore. My point was I don't agree with euthanising pups because they COULD be deaf when the reality is they may be perfectly fine. My breeder didn't know if my girl would be deaf or not, but she gave her a chance, and I am very grateful that she did (she was from two normally marked parents). Wuffles, Excess white in a border collie does not always precipitate deafness. It increases the risk of it happening and in some lines, it seems to occur more than others. I myself have produced half white face border collies from two solid colours. I BAER tested them at 6 weeks as I am lucky enough to live near the UNI who has the machine to do it. Siblings: Parents: The baby photo you posted, while hard to see does show facial pigment.It does take a lot longer for pigment to come through and what Steve says is true. Some freckles and other body pigment may not come in until they are an adult. I have a red.white boy here who did not get red freckles on his nose until he was nearly 2 1/2 years old, yet he has really good pigment elsewhere. Please also do not confuse white coat pigmentation with skin pigmentation as this is different. Using the same example, in simple terms the red/white border collie can be liver skin pigment (as often seen in the nose pigment) or black pigmented, yet still be a dark or light colour pigment in the body. Ultimately, it is the breeder's choice whether they wish to euthanise deaf puppies or risk placing that burden onto the community. We are really stuck between a catch 22 situation of "damned if we do" or "Damned if we don't". We get howled down for producing puppies with issues that may not have been forseen or helped, and we also get howled down if we decide to euthanise these puppies and be responsible for the animals we breed. My dog is an Australian Shepherd. I understand the colour genetics, I'm not sure what I've said that makes you think I don't. My comments haven't been about euthanising deaf puppies at all, I thought I'd made my thoughts pretty clear. Edit: In short (even though I've said this already), in boxers, BCs, Aussies, and a number of other breed, dogs with white ears MAY or MAY NOT be deaf. Therefore I don't agree with euthanising pups at birth if they MAY or MAY NOT be deaf. That is all I've been saying the whole time. Edited March 28, 2012 by wuffles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvawilow Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Ultimately, it is the breeder's choice whether they wish to euthanise deaf puppies or risk placing that burden onto the community. We are really stuck between a catch 22 situation of "damned if we do" or "Damned if we don't". We get howled down for producing puppies with issues that may not have been forseen or helped, and we also get howled down if we decide to euthanise these puppies and be responsible for the animals we breed. Well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 This is true there is no evidence that white boxers are any less healthy and very few white boxers which come from flashy flahy matings are deaf. Most white boxers which come from white x flashy or white x white are deaf. There is evidence that animals and people with unpigmented areas are more prone to cancer or burning on those areas. That is because one of the purposes of pigment is to deal with ultraviolet rays. Pigments have multi-purposes some of which are yet to be understood. No evidence, but my personal expereince indicates that extreme white dogs are a little more conatct allergy prone as well. A bit itchy. Extreme white is a really artificial thing to breed for because nature rarely produces extreme white land animals. If the mutation was advantageous in any possible way, we would probably see more extreme white animals because nature is ruthlessly efficient and it is easier for a life-form to produce no pigment than to produce pigment.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvawilow Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 No evidence, but my personal expereince indicates that extreme white dogs are a little more conatct allergy prone as well. A bit itchy. From my personal experience I think you're spot on - I have a badly mismarked Australian Shepherd who's allergic to dirt, grass, flowers, pretty much most things :-( He is worse in the warmer months. He's also stone deaf in one ear and half in the other ear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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