Another One Bites The Dust

[Steve]

asal, you are extrapolating what happened to you out to the entire pedigree dog world. Your troubles seem to have been caused, by your own account, by people in your own breed not by AR activists. Didn't people in your breed club make the complaint?

And Steve, not all breeds have a breed club. Are you suggesting breeds can only survive if there is one? I'll point out that not all breeds have the numbers to have a club. Even if they did, there's little to attract the average pet owner, particularly for those outside capital cities. I can't imagine someone in Broken Hill travelling to a breed day that's held in Sydney.

Yeah I know Sheridan and because much of what is required and necessary comes from over seas /country or origin etc clearly they can survive without one but the breeds have a better chance of getting promoted and more getting done in regards to health etc if they have one.

Historically there never was much desire to attract an average pet owner because it really is about showing and pedigrees - some have gone this way and embraced the pet owner and that makes sense but it will always probably be a primary focus on what their origin was all about. Having average pet owners involved may mean greater numbers but doesn't necessarily equate to those things that need to be addressed being taken care of effectively because of the difference in focus.

[tdierikx]

unless you can change the mindset of the self proclaimed ethicals. no one can sell a main register puppy to a non showi without becoming a target for elimination.

At present that is exactly what will get you labled unethical as you are perceived as pandering to supplying to the puppy farmers.

Let's get a bit more real here asal... puppy farmers don't give a toss whether their "stock" has mains registered papers or not - just that they are capable of pumping out lots of cute puppies for the buying public.

Breeders can let their pups go out on limit register with an option to upgrade to mains if said pup shows the promise of showing or being good for breeding. If you really want to make 100% sure that any of the pups sold as pets never breed, you have to desex them before they go out - that's the ONLY way to ensure they are never bred from. But desexing young can have it's own set of risks, yes?

T.

[Steve]

Honestly, moosmum, I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

Me either. I want my breed clubs to focus on the breed and nothing else. Not on all pure breeds, not on all dogs, just their own responsibilities, the breed community, the breed as a whole and any individual of the breed that needs help, breed health, history and expertise, a voice for the breed, a public face for the breed and an organiser of breed events. Done well, that is a great deal.

Yep. So why does intolerance to anything else have to be made a condition of membership?

Its been made a condition of membership that they don't tolerate diversity.Then you ask for that within the breed clubs.

A condition of membership for a breed club? Rubbish. If you want acceptance for deciding on your own what is wrong and how to fix it without approvals and outside of the system by cross breeding or breeding with non pedigreed dogs its simple join another club.

[Steve]

unless you can change the mindset of the self proclaimed ethicals. no one can sell a main register puppy to a non showi without becoming a target for elimination.

At present that is exactly what will get you labled unethical as you are perceived as pandering to supplying to the puppy farmers.

Let's get a bit more real here asal... puppy farmers don't give a toss whether their "stock" has mains registered papers or not - just that they are capable of pumping out lots of cute puppies for the buying public.

Breeders can let their pups go out on limit register with an option to upgrade to mains if said pup shows the promise of showing or being good for breeding. If you really want to make 100% sure that any of the pups sold as pets never breed, you have to desex them before they go out - that's the ONLY way to ensure they are never bred from. But desexing young can have it's own set of risks, yes?

T.

All true but no one can breed a dog and have their puppies registered on the ANKC pedigree system and show any of those puppies if the dog isnt main registered .So I think the point is that lots of puppies may still be bred but not registered purebred ones. - which are the ones which would be under the whole breed club breed club member umbrella.

[Sheridan]

If you think that the average pet owners don't know or don't care about things like health then you're sadly mistaken. Indeed, there are far more pet owners than there are breeders and by sheer numbers alone pets are far more likely to have problems if there are health issues in a breed than show dogs. Health doesn't belong to breeders, it belongs to anyone who has a one of that breed.

[asal]

asal, you are extrapolating what happened to you out to the entire pedigree dog world. Your troubles seem to have been caused, by your own account, by people in your own breed not by AR activists. Didn't people in your breed club make the complaint?

And Steve, not all breeds have a breed club. Are you suggesting breeds can only survive if there is one? I'll point out that not all breeds have the numbers to have a club. Even if they did, there's little to attract the average pet owner, particularly for those outside capital cities. I can't imagine someone in Broken Hill travelling to a breed day that's held in Sydney.

Do you honestly think this is a one off?

Only the other day I was talking to an rspca specil constable, and guess what? most of the complaints about breeders come from??????????????? fellow breeders.

its been the way to get rid of what others who consider themselves the "guardians of their breed" and its been going on for decades.

yes its nice the say I brought it on myself. Yes I did.

I didnt follow the party line.

why should I?

Who are these people who know everything? or more correctly THINK they know everything.

what about the pair who bred the parents of a pup they then told the new owner is a crossbred???????????

so how much do they really know after all?

how can I or the owner of that pup be expected to respect and look up to people who prove they dont know as much as they thought that did that day?

Edited December 27, 2012 by asal

[Steve]

If you think that the average pet owners don't know or don't care about things like health then you're sadly mistaken. Indeed, there are far more pet owners than there are breeders and by sheer numbers alone pets are far more likely to have problems if there are health issues in a breed than show dogs. Health doesn't belong to breeders, it belongs to anyone who has a one of that breed.

No thats not what I think and if anyone has an interest in a breed and wants to get involved in my opinion that would be nothing but a good thing.i know Im more likely to get truthful knowledge on health from a pet owner than I am from many breeders but because of the focus on showing and breeding it takes a lot to pull that together and give average pet owners enough reason to be members or at least to be members who are working at the show /breeding side of it . Having 100 pet owners and 2 showies wouldnt really do what the club was originally intended for . It would be a nice club with everyone owning a dog of a particular breed but for it to be about shows and registrations etc that takes those involved in those things to function.

[asal]

asal, you are extrapolating what happened to you out to the entire pedigree dog world. Your troubles seem to have been caused, by your own account, by people in your own breed not by AR activists. Didn't people in your breed club make the complaint?

When the members of a breed club start saying the same as the AR activists they are shooting themselves in the foot in their zeal to be seen as 'ethical'

"Its unethical to breed a litter if you dont intend to keep them" in the 70's most who bred, did breed to sell their pups, thousands of pensioners made 'pin' money from their pups to get by on the pension.

"its unethical to sell on main register if its not show quality" now thats even been morphed to "if it cant become an australian champion it shouldnt be on main register" in the 70's any pup that was considered a credit to its breeder was on main register. it didnt HAVE to be good enough to show, it didnt HAVE to be good enough to become a CHAMPION.

aLL it had to have was reasonable conformation and type, there used to be three types, Showing was one, Breeding was the other that still received Main registration .

The third was pet. There was no limit rego, the pet buyer received a typed or written copy of the pedigree.

The other two categories recived their Full Registration Papers.

Somewhere along the line the breeding quality dog got lost.

INCREDIBALE and SHOCKING it may be, but its a fact that two dogs incapable of becoming Australin Champions can and have for decades managed to produce as good and better pups than Champion to Champion mating.

now with todays pack of gullables all the once registered breeding quality dogs are all on limit, even the majority of show quality dogs are on limit.

Take a look at how many desperate to be Ethical's even advertise they will never sell a main register pup, that they only register on main what they intend to keep?

long as these people continue this mind set the slide into extinction of the breeds will continue.

Ninety percent of new breeders havent a clue about genetics and selection.

dna tests, hip scores etc are only skimming the edges of what a "breeder" needs to learn and select for and perfection is never going to happen.

thats why the art of selecting two breeding quality, (not perfect) without the same fault in both, but different strenghts as well is being lost along with the breeds.

but hey im a dinosour wasting my time trying to educate people who think they already know everything once they have passed their breeders test.

There is a very very true saying.

YOU ONLY STOP LEARNING WHEN YOUR DEAD!

trouble is , it is as if once a person decides they have become 'ethical' its becominganother word for brain/learning dead.

Edited December 27, 2012 by asal

[Steve]

Asal I would agree that most complaints come from other breeders but thats across the board .If you ban breed clubs it will still happen and many complaints come from those who are not in a breed club about those who are.

Personally it makes no difference to me whether they all fall down or not but is there really a need to chase anyone who may be considering giving it a go off with a big wicked stick.?

[asal]

Asal I would agree that most complaints come from other breeders but thats across the board .If you ban breed clubs it will still happen and many complaints come from those who are not in a breed club about those who are.

Personally it makes no difference to me whether they all fall down or not but is there really a need to chase anyone who may be considering giving it a go off with a big wicked stick.?

Did I miss something?

I thought the discussion was why are breed clubs folding?

All I was meaning was the altered mindset and goals of todays members and breeders is what is eliminating not only future breeders but the very breeds they love.

change the culture, save the breed.

Although you wont see me volanteering to try any more, sadly I think its past the save timeline.

Can hope for a miricale of course.

but no Im not advocating banning breed clubs.

just advocating for a miracal or mesiah that might wake them up to whats really happening

Edited December 27, 2012 by asal

[Steve]

Asal I would agree that most complaints come from other breeders but thats across the board .If you ban breed clubs it will still happen and many complaints come from those who are not in a breed club about those who are.

Personally it makes no difference to me whether they all fall down or not but is there really a need to chase anyone who may be considering giving it a go off with a big wicked stick.?

Did I miss something?

I thought the discussion was why are breed clubs folding?

All I was meaning was the altered mindset and goals of todays members and breeders is what is eliminating not only future breeders but the very breeds they love.

change the culture, save the breed.

Although you wont see me volanteering to try any more, sadly I think its past the save timeline.

Can hope for a miricale of course.

but no Im not advocating banning breed clubs.

just advocating for a miracal or mesiah that might wake them up to whats really happening

O.K. Thats good I understood this post but you had me wondering what you were getting at earlier.

[Sheridan]

asal, you are extrapolating what happened to you out to the entire pedigree dog world. Your troubles seem to have been caused, by your own account, by people in your own breed not by AR activists. Didn't people in your breed club make the complaint?

And Steve, not all breeds have a breed club. Are you suggesting breeds can only survive if there is one? I'll point out that not all breeds have the numbers to have a club. Even if they did, there's little to attract the average pet owner, particularly for those outside capital cities. I can't imagine someone in Broken Hill travelling to a breed day that's held in Sydney.

Do you honestly think this is a one off?

Only the other day I was talking to an rspca specil constable, and guess what? most of the complaints about breeders come from??????????????? fellow breeders.

its been the way to get rid of what others who consider themselves the "guardians of their breed" and its been going on for decades.

yes its nice the say I brought it on myself. Yes I did.

I didnt follow the party line.

why should I?

Who are these people who know everything? or more correctly THINK they know everything.

what about the pair who bred the parents of a pup they then told the new owner is a crossbred???????????

so how much do they really know after all?

how can I or the owner of that pup be expected to respect and look up to people who prove they dont know as much as they thought that did that day?

Everything about breeding you view through the lens of what happened to you. Your bitterness seeps through every post. In fact, I don't think you've posted about anything else since I began to read your posts. But there's only so much repeating you can do before you come across as a broken record. I don't doubt your sincerity but not everything is an AR conspiracy.

[Sheridan]

If you think that the average pet owners don't know or don't care about things like health then you're sadly mistaken. Indeed, there are far more pet owners than there are breeders and by sheer numbers alone pets are far more likely to have problems if there are health issues in a breed than show dogs. Health doesn't belong to breeders, it belongs to anyone who has a one of that breed.

No thats not what I think and if anyone has an interest in a breed and wants to get involved in my opinion that would be nothing but a good thing.i know Im more likely to get truthful knowledge on health from a pet owner than I am from many breeders but because of the focus on showing and breeding it takes a lot to pull that together and give average pet owners enough reason to be members or at least to be members who are working at the show /breeding side of it . Having 100 pet owners and 2 showies wouldnt really do what the club was originally intended for . It would be a nice club with everyone owning a dog of a particular breed but for it to be about shows and registrations etc that takes those involved in those things to function.

Isn't it up to club members to say what a club is for?

[pebbles]

Years ago I was Secretary for 3 AB Clubs and 2 Ag Soc. for over 20 years. The AB Clubs were friendly places and we had a number of pet people in each Club. Those people loved helping out at shows, catering, selling raffle tickets, writing CCs etc. Our meetings went through the usual business then supper and general dog chat after. About 8 years ago I went down to Gippsland and attended one of those meetings. Not many there and the bitchiness!!!! Don't reckon I'd want to be involved again.

I know of 2 Breed Clubs which had the same great atmosphere years ago but one has folded and the other isn't far off it due to the attitude of some, dare I say, new people coming in, taking over and getting rid of the older folk with their years of knowledge. I remember sitting with my breed exhibitors at shows and discussing dogs, getting advise on what was throwing what to which bitches, what wasn't desirable, where the breed was going, etc. Those days have long gone, the judging is a mess, overall so many breeds have declined in quality along with show entries. i realise costs and time can be a problem but once I started to hear "Got this one through now I'll bring out the next one to get his/her title", where could the quality go but down? It's 'sheep stations'now and I really can't see much future for the show world.

[asal]

asal, you are extrapolating what happened to you out to the entire pedigree dog world. Your troubles seem to have been caused, by your own account, by people in your own breed not by AR activists. Didn't people in your breed club make the complaint?

And Steve, not all breeds have a breed club. Are you suggesting breeds can only survive if there is one? I'll point out that not all breeds have the numbers to have a club. Even if they did, there's little to attract the average pet owner, particularly for those outside capital cities. I can't imagine someone in Broken Hill travelling to a breed day that's held in Sydney.

Do you honestly think this is a one off?

Only the other day I was talking to an rspca specil constable, and guess what? most of the complaints about breeders come from??????????????? fellow breeders.

its been the way to get rid of what others who consider themselves the "guardians of their breed" and its been going on for decades.

yes its nice the say I brought it on myself. Yes I did.

I didnt follow the party line.

why should I?

Who are these people who know everything? or more correctly THINK they know everything.

what about the pair who bred the parents of a pup they then told the new owner is a crossbred???????????

so how much do they really know after all?

how can I or the owner of that pup be expected to respect and look up to people who prove they dont know as much as they thought that did that day?

Everything about breeding you view through the lens of what happened to you. Your bitterness seeps through every post. In fact, I don't think you've posted about anything else since I began to read your posts. But there's only so much repeating you can do before you come across as a broken record. I don't doubt your sincerity but not everything is an AR conspiracy.

no your right.

its the people who do not register anything on main. the people who do register some on main, but only if they think its going to be a champion. the people who no longer realise there is such thing as a breeding quality dog, which is an entirely different creature to a show champion.

Why do I get accused of being a broken record?

because HULLO................NO ONE IS LISTENING.

how proud does it make me ,to have spent 30 years telling thecommittee members of our breed club,,judges too, that "the more diminutative preferred" in the standard was being used as the pretext to send more and more bitches down the ceaser only path to reproduction... how proud does it make me it had to take "pedigree dogs exposed" to finally get them so desperate to be seen to care about our breed to FINALLY delete it? What does that really say about the people who run the clubs, judge the breed? It had to take a worldwide expose to get any action?

yet the constant reduction of the numbers of breeders, the continuing reduction (across the board) of puppies registered PROVES, THERE IS A PROBLEM.

since you know all the answers

thank DOG you can fix it. before its too late eh?

Edited December 27, 2012 by asal

[Sheridan]

Perhaps, asal, no one is listening because there's only so much broken record one can take.

[asal]

Perhaps, asal, no one is listening because there's only so much broken record one can take.

Yet it only took ONE screening OF PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED to finnaly at last, achieve that change for the better?

A fellow member, a fellow breeder is "a cracked record"

it took that one AR Doco to get it finally done

What does that really say about todays dog fraternity?

Edited December 27, 2012 by asal

[asal]

What does it tell Joe public about the Pedigree ranks

it does SHOUT something, Reactive, not Pro active just for starters, good Public Relations.

reactive

1. Personnel management: Behavior that is not internally motivated but manifests in response to a situation or the actions of others.

2. Safety management: Unstable chemical that reacts with its surroundings (air, water, light, heat, pressure) or certain other chemicals. Reactive chemicals start unwanted or uncontrolled reactions with the release of energy, increase in temperature, formation of corrosive, noxious, or toxic byproducts or spoilage.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/reactive.html#ixzz2GFGQlpIu

Proactive.

Action and result oriented behavior, instead of the one that waits for things to happen and then tries to adjust (react) to them. Proactive behavior aims at identification and exploitation of opportunities and in taking preemptory action against potential problems and threats, whereas reactive behavior focuses on fighting a fire or solving a problem after it occurs.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/proactive.html#ixzz2GFGyjNjE

Who of the two do you think Joe Public will respect?

Edited December 27, 2012 by asal

[Sheridan]

Perhaps, asal, no one is listening because there's only so much broken record one can take.

Yet it only took ONE screening OF PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED to finnaly at last, achieve that change for the better?

A fellow member, a fellow breeder is "a cracked record"

it took that one AR Doco to get it finally done

What does that really say about todays dog fraternity?

It says more about you that a comment about you became about PED in your response.

As for your following post, Joe Public doesn't tend to respect hysteria no matter who it comes from.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Sheridan

[pebbles]

Oh for heaven's sake - this is what's wrong with the dog scene - bloody arguments.