Luke GSP Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 Hi all, just a quick one, when you are first teaching stay, do you stiil reward even if you see a little "creep" or only reward when sat in the one spot with no creep? My little cocker is so excitable that sometimes when in a sit/stay he will slide on his bottom about an inch for each step backwards that you take. personally I mark it with "no" and then walk back and slide him back that inch. Obviously when he does not creep I mark with "good" and reward once i get back to him. Just wondering how strict you are when working through training this command? Are you a little more forgiving at first and then try and "tighten" up later on, or go for the exact behaviour from the off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 If you reward a creep, you're teaching a creep. If they are breaking the stay at a certain point, can you reward just before that point? So you're not waiting quite as long to reward, and not giving them a chance to creep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 I go back and correct Elsie every time for creeping, even if it's a tiny bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke GSP Posted June 30, 2013 Author Share Posted June 30, 2013 If you reward a creep, you're teaching a creep. If they are breaking the stay at a certain point, can you reward just before that point? So you're not waiting quite as long to reward, and not giving them a chance to creep? My thoughts exactly "hence" why I always walk back and reposition. It's not at a certain point, should have said earlier, but this is the first day training the sit/stay with this dog. I trained my GSP's this way and they are pretty rock solid even under high levels of distraction and they don't creep in any way.This little cocker however has a fantastic level of enthusiasm and he vibrates for most of the time that you are trying to train him, so just wanted that by pushing for the spot on behaviour wasn't going to kill his enthusiasm :) Just wanted to see if other people accepted a little "sloppiness" at the off and then tightened up. The reasoning behind me accepting no movement is that I have always believed in rewarding the spot on correct behaviour and correcting anything else :) making 100% sure that the dog knew what was right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 If you reward a creep, you're teaching a creep. If they are breaking the stay at a certain point, can you reward just before that point? So you're not waiting quite as long to reward, and not giving them a chance to creep? yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 I wouldn't be walking away on the first day training the stay. If the dog is creeping then imo you have gone too far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke GSP Posted June 30, 2013 Author Share Posted June 30, 2013 I wouldn't be walking away on the first day training the stay. If the dog is creeping then imo you have gone too far away. I'm not walking off, :laugh: turning to be in front of dog and praising if he stayed in place, which he did, stepped back, up to a maximum of two steps, he was fine at the turn to face, but was creeping on the step backs, after about 5 minutes he wasn't creeping anymore (keep in mind that the dog in question is about 3 so not a puppy (which i probably should have said before hand ) we got him a few months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 On your first day, you were being greedy :) Step in front at the most. I do a bit of stepping to the side before I step in front. And only the right leg first. So the dog is getting used to you moving a bit and learning to stay put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 I agree with JulesP. You're just pushing it a bit too far if they break :) I don't correct stay breaks at all (actually depending on the dog's temperament this can actually cause a lot of anxiety with stays which is something to be avoided). Obviously that depends on the dog though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 (edited) Mine don't creep but Weez will 'bounce' and Chess will 'hover' (you could throw a tennis ball under her elbows if she was able to choose her down position ). I correct (in the literal sense: by telling them what they should be doing and luring if needs be to show them) and then reward when it's what I want to see. I agree that if is your first day training, the dog may not really know what a sit-stay is supposed to be yet, and will assume it is whatever you are rewarding. Sitstay is not a complex behaviour so I wouldn't try to shape it from sloppy to good. If it was going wrong I'd just lower the criteria by asking for less time or using less human movement :) Edited June 30, 2013 by TheLBD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke GSP Posted June 30, 2013 Author Share Posted June 30, 2013 On your first day, you were being greedy :) Step in front at the most. I do a bit of stepping to the side before I step in front. And only the right leg first. So the dog is getting used to you moving a bit and learning to stay put. I know but this little cocker is so fun to train and he picks stuff up so quick its sometimes hard to hold back, as you can literally see him working it out and once he gets it, he's pretty solid. He retrieves well including following hand signals, sits and lays down with great enthusiasm and is a great little hunter (even if he is just hunting a stuffed duck under the cushions :laugh: he thinks he's tops :) ) Absolutely loving working him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke GSP Posted June 30, 2013 Author Share Posted June 30, 2013 I agree with JulesP. You're just pushing it a bit too far if they break :) I don't correct stay breaks at all (actually depending on the dog's temperament this can actually cause a lot of anxiety with stays which is something to be avoided). Obviously that depends on the dog though. So when you say "at all" do you mean literally not at all? When I say I correct, I am talking about saying "no" as soon as he creeps, stepping back to him, positioning him back on the spot and starting again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke GSP Posted June 30, 2013 Author Share Posted June 30, 2013 Mine don't creep but Weez will 'bounce' and Chess will 'hover' (you could throw a tennis ball under her elbows if she was able to choose her down position ). I correct (in the literal sense: by telling them what they should be doing and luring if needs be to show them) and then reward when it's what I want to see. I agree that if is your first day training, the dog may not really know what a sit-stay is supposed to be yet, and will assume it is whatever you are rewarding. Sitstay is not a complex behaviour so I wouldn't try to shape it from sloppy to good. If it was going wrong I'd just lower the criteria by asking for less time or using less human movement :) Thats why I only reward when he gets it spot on, just wondering if others did the same or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 I agree with JulesP. You're just pushing it a bit too far if they break :) I don't correct stay breaks at all (actually depending on the dog's temperament this can actually cause a lot of anxiety with stays which is something to be avoided). Obviously that depends on the dog though. So when you say "at all" do you mean literally not at all? When I say I correct, I am talking about saying "no" as soon as he creeps, stepping back to him, positioning him back on the spot and starting again. Yep, I don't say no. I would just release her then try again. But my dog is extra sensitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 I taught stay by very gently pushing my pup- when she resisted she got a yes and reward. At first it was so little that she hardly moved at all, just a shift in balance. It meant I got lots of chances to reward her keeping her weight down and centred. Only once we had the concept that stay meant keeping your balance down and centred did I start to move away and challenge her more. It meant I didn't have creeping because she wasnt 'staying still' for the stay she was keeping her butt firmly planted as the exercise. I would be rewarding when he is well in a balanced sit lots before moving off so that you have a good reward history for not moving. Like wuffles my girl is sensitive so if I start having her 'fail' more than 10% of the time she will start to check out. That being said once she learnt what I wanted I set her up to fail on purpose 10% of the time so she learnt the boundaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 Don't let them get to creep and never reward it if they do. Get back to them before creep, even if it's a second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 My intrumental teacher always used to tell me, "Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect." Probably applies here too :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke GSP Posted June 30, 2013 Author Share Posted June 30, 2013 My intrumental teacher always used to tell me, "Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect." Probably applies here too :D My shooting instructor used to say "practice makes permanent, perfect practice makes perfect" and totally agree that it applies here as well :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 My intrumental teacher always used to tell me, "Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect." Probably applies here too :D My shooting instructor used to say "practice makes permanent, perfect practice makes perfect" and totally agree that it applies here as well :) And it is up to the handler to create the perfect practice :) Set it up so the dog does do it perfectly so you can reward. If you walk 2 steps away instead of 1, tell yourself no not the dog! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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