Beautiful Temperament:

[sandgrubber]

I will probably give up breeding after this litter. But as I sit and watch the nine little buggers, trying to figure out which one to keep, I'm saddened by the notion that I've been asking the wrong questions for many years. The world of dog people I live in has taught me to look for good head and good bone and good coat and good tail and good movement, and balance and so on and so forth according to the standard. No one has ever said to me: "Watch the pups. Play with them. Do some temperament testing. Figure out which one you would most like to live with. If he or she is not too ugly and shows no signs of ill health, keep that pup."

I wish the purebred dog world was as articulate in describing temperament as we are in describing physical appearance. Cause when I look back on all the dogs I have owned, the dog's temperament and intelligence has mattered a lot more important than its looks.

[raineth]

As a dog owner I agree with you.

[Salukifan]

All I can say is you clearly move in very different circles to me. Temperament has always been top of my list of desired characteristics in a dog. I did my first temperament tests on a friend's ltter years ago. Did a DOLers too.

Maybe its coming to purebred dogs through dog sports that made a difference.

Desireable temperament is going to vary between breeds - so there is no one size fits all "best" temperament in a dog. However the first thing I always like to find is resilience.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Mummamia]

I will probably give up breeding after this litter. But as I sit and watch the nine little buggers, trying to figure out which one to keep, I'm saddened by the notion that I've been asking the wrong questions for many years. The world of dog people I live in has taught me to look for good head and good bone and good coat and good tail and good movement, and balance and so on and so forth according to the standard. No one has ever said to me: "Watch the pups. Play with them. Do some temperament testing. Figure out which one you would most like to live with. If he or she is not too ugly and shows no signs of ill health, keep that pup."

I wish the purebred dog world was as articulate in describing temperament as we are in describing physical appearance. Cause when I look back on all the dogs I have owned, the dog's temperament and intelligence has mattered a lot more important than its looks.

Really Sandgrubber Your world never considers temperament above everything? I hope you do what you can to change this attitude... I am so happy to read a post from someone that is starting to consider the important aspects of a dog rather than what it looks like, their ideas of standard. Personally, I don't give a rats about whether they are a purebred... However my latest who I originally fostered and later adopted is a pure breed and she is a goofy looking girl... She kept being past over for looks... I am the winner cause she is the most sensational temperament and most intelligent dog I have ever had... In a particular park I go to has two areas. If someone comes in with a dog who is a bit of a concern, boisterous or pushy... I take my other two ... shy girl and feisty girl into the small section and put goofy girl in with theirs to play... People are so appreciative of this as they find it hard to socialise because of their dogs personality... There's a lady with a very large dog and when she comes in people get their dogs out of the way... The dog is only 7 months old and is missing out because of their perception... Goofy girl has a ball with this dog... He's a great dog... just BIG... I recall a few months back when a little girl, about 6 yrs old pointed at my three as I was walking them and said... 'Look mum two dogs and a pig'... Out of the mouths of children... I do hope you continue to consider what you have learned and get past looks as well cause 'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder' My goofy girl is beautiful to me and she is beyond beautiful on the inside... :D

[Bjelkier]

All I can say is you clearly move in very different circles to me. Temperament has always been top of my list of desired characteristics in a dog. I did my first temperament tests on a friend's ltter years ago. Did a DOLers too.

Maybe its coming to purebred dogs through dog sports that made a difference.

Desireable temperament is going to vary between breeds - so there is no one size fits all "best" temperament in a dog. However the first thing I always like to find is resilience.

Everyone I'm close with thinks exactly the same. Temperament comes first, it always has.

I temp tested my last litter before I went over their structure and I'm very confident I placed the right dogs in the right homes, that they all have lovely temps as the parents were also taken into account before breeding.

The breeder of my Havs thinks very strongly about temp and my little boy has the most amazing temperament.

HW makes a good point about different breeds having different temps. I wouldn't expect my Havs to have the same temp as a friends Bullmastiff but I'd still say all the dogs are correct to their standards and have good temps.

[Salukifan]

Really Sandgrubber Your world never considers temperament above everything? I hope you do what you can to change this attitude... I am so happy to read a post from someone that is starting to consider the important aspects of a dog rather than what it looks like, their ideas of standard. Personally, I don't give a rats about whether they are a purebred... However my latest who I originally fostered and later adopted is a pure breed and she is a goofy looking girl... She kept being past over for looks... I am the winner cause she is the most sensational temperament and most intelligent dog I have ever had... In a particular park I go to has two areas. If someone comes in with a dog who is a bit of a concern, boisterous or pushy... I take my other two ... shy girl and feisty girl into the small section and put goofy girl in with theirs to play... People are so appreciative of this as they find it hard to socialise because of their dogs personality... There's a lady with a very large dog and when she comes in people get their dogs out of the way... The dog is only 7 months old and is missing out because of their perception... Goofy girl has a ball with this dog... He's a great dog... just BIG... I recall a few months back when a little girl, about 6 yrs old pointed at my three as I was walking them and said... 'Look mum two dogs and a pig'... Out of the mouths of children... I do hope you continue to consider what you have learned and get past looks as well cause 'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder' My goofy girl is beautiful to me and she is beyond beautiful on the inside... :D

This is NOT revolutionary thinking - LOTS of purebred dog breeders select and reject dogs based on temperament. Wendy Volhard's Puppy Attitude Test for litters was first filmed in 1981 and is well known.

Sorry, but how a dog looks in terms of structure and its compliance to a breed standard IS important to some of us. You don't have to make a choice between looks and temperament - its possible to get the whole package.

I happen to like beautiful (to my eyes) dogs with sound temperament and I'm certainly not ashamed of that.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[mita]

You are not alone in valuing temperament in purebred dogs.

A good example is P'zazz Tibetan Spaniel Kennels in Sweden. Australian breeders have imported this breeder's dogs & P'zazz has imported at least one Australian dog.

This breeder puts temperament early the list of what she breeds for, along with health. And her end product is always the social benefits for her dogs eventually living in a good pet home. I can support that.... I own one of her imported, retired showdogs. Glorious temperament.

From P'zazz website:

My goal is, and I feel dedicated, to breed with healthy animals, only breed with animals that have good temperaments , and beneath this, frames bred as close to the breed standard as I can, to give lives to tibbie-puppies (so they) have the best qualifications for a good long life and a loving home for the rest of their lives.

Her approach fits well with also producing exceptional dogs in the showring. One of her girls won Best of Breed at Crufts.

Edited September 5, 2013 by mita

[cassie]

I know a breeder on the East coast who had a request for a show potential pup in WA, the opposite sex to what she herself planned to keep. 10 weeks of careful watching the litter and analyzing everything, and she picked the best puppy conformationally, but said puppy was super shy. She was an absolute cracker, with a perfect head and perfect free stack, but she shied away from strangers and unfamiliar situations. Person in WA had seen pics and was desperate to have this pup, but the breeder explained no, the temperament was all wrong for a show dog, plus she didn't feel comfortable putting the little one on a plane for 5+ hours either. She sent the next best girl (conformationally) whose structure isn't AS good as the first pup, but she has the confidence and easy going nature. She kept the first pup to run on (not to show, it breaks her heart as she's so beautiful but she won't do it) until she finds the right local family for her. Pup will be desexed. This to me is responsible breeding.

[RallyValley]

I just bred my first litter and they will go to their new homes this weekend. Today I spend the day focusing on structure but every observation up till this point has been temperament. I sit and watch/play with the pups for hours, I know them all. I have had people over to do temp tests and I am taking the pups out into an environment tomorrow to test working ability.

Every home will be matched on temperament and owner expectations. There is no point putting the cuddly people oriented boy with limited drive in a working home, no matter how nice his conformation is! Maybe it's just different for me because 4 out of 6 pups will be going to performance homes...

[Salukifan]

I wish the purebred dog world was as articulate in describing temperament as we are in describing physical appearance. Cause when I look back on all the dogs I have owned, the dog's temperament and intelligence has mattered a lot more important than its looks.

And strangely, that's what the Labrador breed standard emphasises, does it not?

CHARACTERISTICS

Good-tempered, very agile (which precludes excessive body weight or substance). Excellent nose, soft mouth; keen love of water. Adaptable, devoted companion.

The true Labrador temperament is perhaps the Labrador's greatest asset, and is as important as his three most distinguishing physical features. His disposition is friendly to man and dog, kindly, out going, biddable and intelligent, and with an exceptional

willingness to please and a highly developed retrieving instinct. When judging it must always be remembered that any aggressive behaviour towards humans or animals, or shyness in adult dogs should be severely penalised, as this behaviour is not typical

of the breed.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[megan_]

All I can say is you clearly move in very different circles to me. Temperament has always been top of my list of desired characteristics in a dog. I did my first temperament tests on a friend's ltter years ago. Did a DOLers too.

Maybe its coming to purebred dogs through dog sports that made a difference.

Desireable temperament is going to vary between breeds - so there is no one size fits all "best" temperament in a dog. However the first thing I always like to find is resilience.

The standards tend to have a page on structure & look, one one or two words on temperament though.

[ness]

Good temperament is nothing if the dog isn't physically sound enough to make use of whatever atributes it may show temperament wise. There is no point in having a herding breed who is sweet natured and energetic but is unable to use that because they have a body which is falling apart. I can understand why the emphasis is therefore on physical structure (and hopefully soundness).

[Salukifan]

All I can say is you clearly move in very different circles to me. Temperament has always been top of my list of desired characteristics in a dog. I did my first temperament tests on a friend's ltter years ago. Did a DOLers too.

Maybe its coming to purebred dogs through dog sports that made a difference.

Desireable temperament is going to vary between breeds - so there is no one size fits all "best" temperament in a dog. However the first thing I always like to find is resilience.

The standards tend to have a page on structure & look, one one or two words on temperament though.

No standard I know has "one or two words" on temperament. The Whippet standard says:　

TEMPERAMENTGentle, affectionate, even disposition.

The Whippet is one of the least aggressive of dogs, both with people and with other dogs. He is gentle and affectionate in the extreme, but will also form a very close relationship with one particular person. He is amenable to discipline and very anxious to please. Whilst all this is true, he should not be at all retiring or shy. He might not be very interested in you, as a stranger, but he most definitely should not be timid, and will, given cause, warn off intruders.

Look For: A relaxed but confident, even disposition. A Whippet should be neither timid nor aggressive.

[BlackJaq]

A temperament that conforms to the breed standard is a correct temperament for that dog. However, your "beautiful" temperament, whatever that may be in this case, may be completely incorrect for other breeds, especially if they are going to be a working dog.

I have not spoken to any registered breeders who were not highly aware and selective about the temperaments of their stock and their puppies and who were not matching the pup's temperament to the puppy buyer's requirements.

I seriously wonder what kind of people you are hanging out with

[Alkhe]

I will probably give up breeding after this litter. But as I sit and watch the nine little buggers, trying to figure out which one to keep, I'm saddened by the notion that I've been asking the wrong questions for many years. The world of dog people I live in has taught me to look for good head and good bone and good coat and good tail and good movement, and balance and so on and so forth according to the standard. No one has ever said to me: "Watch the pups. Play with them. Do some temperament testing. Figure out which one you would most like to live with. If he or she is not too ugly and shows no signs of ill health, keep that pup."

I wish the purebred dog world was as articulate in describing temperament as we are in describing physical appearance. Cause when I look back on all the dogs I have owned, the dog's temperament and intelligence has mattered a lot more important than its looks.

I'm saddened that you've been asking the wrong questions for many years, too.. I'm so glad to read the other posts, which show that temperament really IS an important consideration for people. Regardless of how explicitly it's outlined in whichever breed standard you're breeding to.

The purebred dog world is made up of people, like those who post here. It is what people make it, and what people make of it. I can't help but think it's a complete cop out to say that others are to blame for not telling you to focus on temperament, or anything else.

[Allerzeit]

All I can say is you clearly move in very different circles to me. Temperament has always been top of my list of desired characteristics in a dog. I did my first temperament tests on a friend's ltter years ago. Did a DOLers too.

Maybe its coming to purebred dogs through dog sports that made a difference.

Desireable temperament is going to vary between breeds - so there is no one size fits all "best" temperament in a dog. However the first thing I always like to find is resilience.

Yes, agree with you there HW - temperament has always been at the top of our list. This is hardly a new thing in the breeding circles that I frequent and grew up with.

[mita]

A temperament that conforms to the breed standard is a correct temperament for that dog. However, your "beautiful" temperament, whatever that may be in this case, may be completely incorrect for other breeds, especially if they are going to be a working dog.

I

Your comment about selection for behavioral traits in working dogs differing from what would be selected for show dogs, is borne out by this research paper.

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/AnimPersInst/Animal%20Personality%20PDFs/S/Sa-Sc/Svartburg%202006.pdf

Interestingly, sandgrubber posted this paper up in the research papers section of DOL.

I'd define 'temperament' as 'relatively consistent pattern of behavioral traits'.

Edited September 5, 2013 by mita

[BlackJaq]

A temperament that conforms to the breed standard is a correct temperament for that dog. However, your "beautiful" temperament, whatever that may be in this case, may be completely incorrect for other breeds, especially if they are going to be a working dog.

I

Your comment about selection for behavioral traits in working dogs differing from what would be selected for show dogs, is borne out by this research paper.

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/AnimPersInst/Animal%20Personality%20PDFs/S/Sa-Sc/Svartburg%202006.pdf

Interestingly, sandgrubber posted this paper up in the research papers section of DOL.

No, what I meant was that the standard Labrador Temperament would be completely incorrect for a Working Anatolian Shepherd for example.

Just because the OP prefers the particular temperament that their pups have, does not make it correct for every dog. Sorry if I was not clear on this before.

ETA: Just looking at this study now and it is certainly making for interesting reading!

Edited September 5, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Alyosha]

...

No standard I know has "one or two words" on temperament.

...

Don't look at the Saluki standard one then... But it is lacking in many regards.

I also find it amazing that breeders wouldn't just be considering good temperament in regards to socially acceptable dog behaviour, but in relation to what the standard says.

Ours says: Sensitive, alert and aloof.

Which yes, is just a few words. But they do say a lot if you think about them. I don't want to breed Borzoi that have temps that are correct and lovely for very temperamentally different dogs like Labs. I want them to be true to their breed. I want them to be sensitive - it is something that I, and many other breed fanciers, adore about them. That word encompasses a whole attitude that can have so many other adjectives involved.

The extension to the standard does expand a little: The Borzoi should be sensitive, with quiet dignity. He should be alert and far seeing, always ready for the chase. This should eliminate any specimen of undue shyness or aggressiveness.

[mita]

A temperament that conforms to the breed standard is a correct temperament for that dog. However, your "beautiful" temperament, whatever that may be in this case, may be completely incorrect for other breeds, especially if they are going to be a working dog.

I

Your comment about selection for behavioral traits in working dogs differing from what would be selected for show dogs, is borne out by this research paper.

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/AnimPersInst/Animal%20Personality%20PDFs/S/Sa-Sc/Svartburg%202006.pdf

Interestingly, sandgrubber posted this paper up in the research papers section of DOL.

No, what I meant was that the standard Labrador Temperament would be completely incorrect for a Working Anatolian Shepherd for example.

Just because the OP prefers the particular temperament that their pups have, does not make it correct for every dog. Sorry if I was not clear on this before.

Yes, that's the consequence of those findings. A dog with a 'working dog' breed label that's bred for showing tends to have certain differences in pattern of behavioral traits from any of the breeds that are actually used as working dogs. Because the actual working dogs require certain traits, to do that work. Those certain behavioral traits tend not to be consistent with what's required for dogs to be shown...

The Conclusion section of that research paper neatly summarizes it.

And I think your comments are spot on.

Edited September 5, 2013 by mita