Aziah Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 It annoys me as well, especially when those protesting the loudest (and there have been MANY over the years on DOL) have rarely even been to a specialty and seen these dogs REALLY go through their paces. It's a sight to behold. I a good way that is :) Had a great time at the GSD National in Canberra last month :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) One more thing. I have had a fair bit to do with showline GSDs in my life and recognise that not ALL showlines are in the same boat and this is not attacking ALL GSD breeders nor am I attacking the ones that have dogs that in my opinion could walk better. I am stating and have stated from the beginning that this is JUST my opinion from what i have seen. I have also stated that I admire the the dog HW posted and am glad it won as it looks much better than some others I have been involved with. I'm sorry if I offended anyone but I did state it was my opinion only. And a forum has many differing views. That's really all from me now. The kitchen's not too hot I just prefer to cook outside. Seeya :) Edited June 11, 2014 by mixeduppup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aziah Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 One more thing. I have had a fair bit to do with showline GSDs in my life and recognise that not ALL showlines are in the same boat and this is not attacking ALL GSD breeders nor am I attacking the ones that have dogs that in my opinion could walk better. I am stating and have stated from the beginning that this is JUST my opinion from what i have seen. I have also stated that I admire the the dog HW posted and am glad it won as it looks much better than some others I have been involved with. I'm sorry if I offended anyone but I did state it was my opinion only. And a forum has many differing views. That's really all from me now. The kitchen's not too hot I just prefer to cook outside. Seeya :) Thank you for back-pedalling, none of the above is what you stated throughout the rest of the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) It annoys me as well, especially when those protesting the loudest (and there have been MANY over the years on DOL) have rarely even been to a specialty and seen these dogs REALLY go through their paces. It's a sight to behold. I a good way that is :) Had a great time at the GSD National in Canberra last month :) I was there too! I got to meet Dawn Fraser ???? Edited June 11, 2014 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 That must be Dawns Shepherd on the ad she does for , I forgot what it is now :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) The more you learn the less you know, and be sparse with your thoughts. The less you know the more you need to learn, and run off at the mouth to prove it. I look at some of my early posts on this forum and cringe. Edited June 11, 2014 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 There's nothing like a bit of learning. I've learned more about the rear angulation in Labs this week and foot placement, it's been great. Some of the things I have liked are not necessarily correct and I will be looking at the Lab in a whole new light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aziah Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 It annoys me as well, especially when those protesting the loudest (and there have been MANY over the years on DOL) have rarely even been to a specialty and seen these dogs REALLY go through their paces. It's a sight to behold. I a good way that is :) Had a great time at the GSD National in Canberra last month :) I was there too! I got to meet Dawn Fraser ???? Oh! I didn't know you were there... You need to find me in Yass this weekend if you're there as I have a cute baby Pembroke who likes cuddles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 You need to find me in Yass this weekend if you're there as I have a cute baby Pembroke who likes cuddles. How does he/she feel about playing with Whippets? Dodger loves babies! I'll be there on Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teekay Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) The more you learn the less you know, and be sparse with your thoughts. The less you know the more you need to learn, and run off at the mouth to prove it. Good quote and I have learnt a lot from this thread. I have learnt that my Lab was not a good example of the breed. Obviously doesn't matter to me I adored her but I do now realise she wasn't really what a Labrador should look like. I will now look at Labs differently as I did have a tendency to look at them and automatically think 'overweight' when they were so much stockier than my Holly. It took me a while to find this quote but I think it very relevant with all of the discussion about "type" and what people prefer or like. It's a good reminder for the novice and the seasoned breeder alike. There is but ONE standard. “Preferred breed type” is like a flavor of the month, very fleeting! BREEDERS, JUDGES AND EXHIBITORS HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT THEIR BREED STANDARDS. However, with reference to this quote. Do standards change over time? Looking once again at a picture that has been posted on here: These are two different champions a number of years apart. The left was in 1964, the right in 2014 in the Uk. They are very very different looking dogs. I understand that the standard may be open to some interpretation? But these dogs are so so different? I don't get it. Edited June 11, 2014 by teekay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aziah Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 You need to find me in Yass this weekend if you're there as I have a cute baby Pembroke who likes cuddles. How does he/she feel about playing with Whippets? Dodger loves babies! I'll be there on Sunday. She likes everything :) I'll see you and Dodger on Sunday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teekay Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 To go back to the Original Post - Personally feel there is a trend for many of the show lines to be presented - in not ideal condition - perhaps it is not just overweight but without the muscle tone to really enhance the individual dog. However this could be said for most of the much loved pet dogs we see in peoples homes..... Certainly with breeds like the OP's query the Labrador there are concerns that a show as high as the Westminster Show would be rewarded a dog who does not show the overall balance one would expect from this breed. A labrador is after all meant to be a working gun dog.... perhaps not to run all day but have the strength and agility to walk across the fields for a few hours, leap into water and swim to retreive and then stand ready for the next task.... Aussielover - mentioned that she is not sure what is happening in the Aussie show ring - I don't enjoy nor do I have the time to show but as a breeder I try to keep in touch with what is happening and what young dogs are coming thru, so attend the occassional show and generaly Vic Aussie Speciality every year to see what is around. At the 2013 Speciality they had an American Judge Nannette Newbury - and was very impressed with her judging....plonked myself down where I could hear her record her critique on the all the placing. I was not surprised that she actually mentioned many times that some of the dogs were shown overweight and not in working condition. Quite a few of these were from the better known names on the Aussie Show Scene.... they are a working dog and should be lean and muscled, some just carry too much condition perhaps from spending hours in crates and pens instead of wandering around the Ranch as was intended. Someone else mentioned that it would be interesting to have a machine to measure the dogs. Well in fact you can - If you search - many of the breeds do give measurement ratios..... height/width/length, head ratios, weight ranges and even angles of shoulders and croup. - There are even some breeds who conduct official surveys and the GSD is the one I had experience with when I bred dogs in the 80's - I assume the club still runs it currently. They produced an annual Survey book which was every breeders bible when it came to researching dogs of interest, not only for a sire you liked but also to look up the offspring to see how they stacked up to the standard.... especially for information on bite and detention. It is interesting to look back at the quality of the GSD back in the 80's and see strong bone and toplines and hocks without such the exaggerations also very uniform in size and type - Nowdays see many males who would tower over these previous dogs and bone as huge as my foream..... very loose hocks and often movement that paddles instead of glide. So what can breeders do to improve - Have started conducting my own Survey on the Aussie Shepherds that I have bred = I have brought the calipers and measuring sticks and started recording the measurements for dogs I have bred and have been very surprised at the results.... firstly it is easier to do than I thought and with some of the dogs I thought were too big and rangy have proven to still fit within the ratios, same with ones that I thought might be too small.... I wish my breed club could bring out a survey system for Aussies like they have for the GSD would be invaluable to have a more detached result as well as an official data base for hip/elbow and dna results. Oh well I can dream...... Just had to say, excellent post. What a great idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 when it comes to discussions of type, I prefer Richard Beauchamp's reasoning which he discusses in his book 'Solving the Mysteries of Breed Type'. In this he discusses that there is only one 'type' which are the basic hallmarks that make a dog instantly recogniseable as a breed. He discussed common denominators, breed character, silhouette, head, movement and coat. He discusses however that within type there are different 'styles' of dog. And style can vary from region to region, kennel to kennel etc. Type or style or strain it is largely semantics, but his way of putting it does make a lot of sense. His book is a great 'workbook' for those wanting to explore breed type in their own (or any) breed. However, Mary Roslin Williams of Mansergh Labrador fame (and folks interested in the Labrador should really read that book. And if you haven't already, please go listen to her speech in the link posted earlier) wrote about varying types: "The sturdy well coated Manserghs are at their best in rough hilly country, able to clamber and run up and down cliffs and overhanging woods and into and out of punishing covert, bushes, brambles, healther, rocks, bogs and water of every sort. their feet, their build and their coats stood up to it. But when on cold flinty open country, they were at a loss to gallop great distances out over stubbles where the taller, longer legged, more lightly got-up dogs were at a great advantage, being able to see further owing to their height giving them a longer horizon and able to race out over open ground for long distances in a straight line, i.e. a galloping type of dog. For this reason I never when judging penalise a dog for being a different type to mine so long as it is still a Labrador. A longer legged dog suits one country and a shorter another. The same with weight, a strong heavy-boned dog standing up better in my Westmoreland type of country than the lighter boned.....I do feel that even if you may not personally like a certain stamp, that you must remember that there are different ideas for different purposes and that you must be able to recognise the good ones of other makes" Yep, there is a reason this lady is so revered by so many...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akayla Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) Good to see some balanced views in here! I totally agree that people often need to just dig a bit deeper than jumping on the "I saw this dog once" band wagon which had no real understanding or knowledge. I wouldn't be able to comment on the dog in the original post without seeing it move and putting my hands over it. PS - the GSD National was awesome this year but I was stuck in my stall so missed the last run off in open. There were some gorgeous dogs walking around though and not nearly enough puppies within cuddling distance! Edited June 11, 2014 by Akayla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
labadore Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Labradors and German Shepherds are subject to the most criticism of any of the breeds, everyone is a Lab or GS expert :D and the loudest criticims come from the least knowledgeable and inexperienced in the breeds. For us long time Lab and GS owners and/or breeders, the criticism is downright annoying and it is often incorrect and of course we will come out in strong defense of our beloved breeds. Of course as in most breeds there are some very bad examples and I encounter some of these almost on a daily basis as I take my boys on outings to dog parks, reserves and rivers daily. Some of them are a result of bad breeding and others as a result of owners who have overfed or underfed or underexercised their dogs. The other day at the dog park there were a few Labs of all shapes and sizes and there was a very overweight and very large yellow boy who completely dwarfed my youngest big solid boy both in height and overall size. I have never seen such a large Labrador in person and he was actually a lovely boy, very playful and very friendly typical Lab, but the stress on his joints would have been horrendous, poor boy and I cringe at the thought of his future if his owner does not get some of that weight off. Hopefully the trip to the dog park was the step in this direction. As I have said in one of my previous posts, Labradors are not meant to be lean, but nor are they meant to be overweight. Unfortunately it's people's interpretation of what constitutes overweight and this is where show/bench lines come in for so much criticism about their Labs being overweight. Yes IMHO some of them are, but equally many of them aren't and I think it is unfair to state that a Labrador is overweight/obese due to some people's perception that Labs are meant to be lean, mean muscle machines and if they aren't they are unhealthy, unfit and overweight. As the standard stipulates their general appearance should be: Strongly built, short coupled, very active; broad in skull; broad and deep through chest and ribs; broad and strong over loins and hindquarters with chest of good width and depth, with well-sprung barrel ribs (this effect not to be produced by carrying excessive weight). Level topline. Loins wide, short-coupled and strong. I will come back later and post some pics for discussion :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) The winner at Westminster is fat. It is what it is. I prefer working field labradors. I breed them, with some say great success. Edited June 11, 2014 by Lablover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I cock my head in confusion when some people suggest working line labradors are hyper. Compared to what breed or are they comparing to show bred labradors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VizslaMomma Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I looked up the BOB Labrador winner from Crufts and in his photos he looked like he was fit not fat. He did look to be in differing body condition from the OPs photo of the Wesminster- I think- Labrador. I did the same. Do you think the difference in breeding approaches is part of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 You can't compare types, although my girl is from mainly show lines as well, but you don't need to if you're just judging body condition. I don't believe labs need a layer of fat on them unless living in the most extreme conditions. Even working labradors in canada and the US who do jump into freezing water as a matter of routine are of an athletic type and condition. This dog is more "strongly" built and probably fits the standard better than my female but to me still actually looks athletic and fit. http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=65594 My dog!!! Until sold to the Australian Government, as I only keep bitches nowadays as I import semen from overseas. I use no Australian studs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I am confused why anyone would be confused that there are differences between the sexes. You should always be able to tell by a glance who is a dog and who is a bitch. Except for Pomeranian's(maybe someothers ) where the bitches are bigger than the males Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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