tesslc Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share Posted June 24, 2014 Wow - so many issues to address. Hopefully I will get them all in the one post. Both pups are going to family members (my brother, who has an SBT as well) and my mother-in-law, so I am comfortable that both will have them de-sexed when they are old enough. I spoke to my vet about that and they said if we are confident both will bring them back fo de-sexing at a later date, that would be better as there are risks with de-sexing at a young age. I haven't spoken to the vet about re-homing, only our breeder. She said that you would usually wait until 8 weeks but given its going to my brother, it would be ok. I will speak to the vet on Monday and go with their advice on re-homing. I also wasn't aware that there is pretty much no point vaccinating whilst pups are still feeding from mum, so it looks like she won't be able to leave for a little longer anyhow. In saying that - any tips on weaning would still be very helpful. She fed them properly this morning (ie lay down and let them attach for a good ten minutes or so) and that's the first time in a couple of days she's done so. I'm not sure whether I should be discouraging her or letting them do their thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) Makes no difference how long the pups feed as anti bodies are set in the first day or two. In days gone by all pups went to their new homes at 6 weeks - only reason the 8 week period was introduced was due to the vaccinations needing 10 to 14 days to cut in - new vaccines only need a couple of days to do that. Still against code of ethics and in some states the law for pups to go home early even though some argue its better for the pup to learn the socialising needed at the new home more than it needs play with its litter mates. Edited June 24, 2014 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Wow - so many issues to address. Hopefully I will get them all in the one post. Both pups are going to family members (my brother, who has an SBT as well) and my mother-in-law, so I am comfortable that both will have them de-sexed when they are old enough. I spoke to my vet about that and they said if we are confident both will bring them back fo de-sexing at a later date, that would be better as there are risks with de-sexing at a young age. I haven't spoken to the vet about re-homing, only our breeder. She said that you would usually wait until 8 weeks but given its going to my brother, it would be ok. I will speak to the vet on Monday and go with their advice on re-homing. I also wasn't aware that there is pretty much no point vaccinating whilst pups are still feeding from mum, so it looks like she won't be able to leave for a little longer anyhow. In saying that - any tips on weaning would still be very helpful. She fed them properly this morning (ie lay down and let them attach for a good ten minutes or so) and that's the first time in a couple of days she's done so. I'm not sure whether I should be discouraging her or letting them do their thing. Leave it up to Mum she will tell them when enough is enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VizslaMomma Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Hmm not the right word "breeder" in this case to give such silly advice that if there registered goes against the COE they must abide by themselves & not sell any pup under 8 weeks .Poor pups & poor new owners irrespective of the breed . No history is an excuse for getting rid of pups at 6 weeks except for the convenience of the people with pups & yep im happy to be flamed . Yes microchipping must be done . I would hope you were not flamed as you speak sense, imo. Looking back at different breeds of dogs taken at different ages, those who left home early did have more issues. I did not own any but had friends that made poor choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/puppysocialisation1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Tess- it's great that they are going to family - however , that early rehoming , no matter how wonderful the new owners does not make up for all those absolutely CRUCIAL lessons learned while with mum,at that age - when their brains can properly process information like adult dogs .. You might enjoy reading this :) CLICK HERE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Oh..and do we have podgy puppy photo updates?? pleeease? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) http://healthypets.m...-as-adults.aspx As is highlighted in the linked article above, studies show that pups separated too early from mother/siblings are much more likely to exhibit avoidant and fearful behaviors. Specifically they are: 15 times more likely to be fearful on walks 7 times more likely to have attention-seeking behaviors and noise reactivity 6 times more likely to bark excessively Another study here: http://europepmc.org...act/MED/7802733 This one discusses the negative effect on physical condition of pups separated at 6 weeks. There is another study which was done in Qld (from memory) which I can't lay my fingers on right now that discusses increase in fear, agression and less bite inhibition in pups separated before 8 weeks of age in comparison to those separated later Edited June 25, 2014 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I haven't spoken to the vet about re-homing, only our breeder. She said that you would usually wait until 8 weeks but given its going to my brother, it would be ok. Sorry doesn't matter who there going to ,i gather the breeder may sell there pups around this age to suggest this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesslc Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Thanks for the links guys I will have a read tonight. Photos at 5 weeks - all tuckered out after 'building' a fort when I wasn't looking. The other photo is at 4 weeks play fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifecta Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/puppysocialisation1 That's an interesting article, Steve, thank you for linking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 How cute are they with their "fort" :) thanks . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesslc Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Makes no difference how long the pups feed as anti bodies are set in the first day or two. In days gone by all pups went to their new homes at 6 weeks - only reason the 8 week period was introduced was due to the vaccinations needing 10 to 14 days to cut in - new vaccines only need a couple of days to do that. Still against code of ethics and in some states the law for pups to go home early even though some argue its better for the pup to learn the socialising needed at the new home more than it needs play with its litter mates. I spoke to my vet this morning - firstly she said we need to get them off mum even if it means seperating them. we are in a high parvo area and they recommend vaccinating at 6 weeks or as close to (not 6-8 like most places). She did say 10 days was safest for the vaccination to work, but provided she wasn't going outside and there dog is fully vaccinated, the risk would be minimal. Interestingly, she supports the theory raised by Steve, that it has been shown to be better for pups to learn their socialising in their new environment, and it isn't likely to be harmful to her to go early. She did say it would be a rough for new nights for all involved (puppy in the new home, the boy we are holding onto and mum) but that would be the case whenever they go. We are going to discuss in more depth when I take them in for their shots on Monday, provided they are completely weaned by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Maternal immunity is fixed in the first few days - what the pups are eating or not eating now is going to have virtually no influence. Within a few days after birth the intestinal wall ceases to be able to absorb the larger molecules which introduce the immune response into the pup from the mother. Pups should never be force weaned unless it is a matter of life and death for mum or pups. You can vaccinate at 6 weeks if you want regardless of whether or not the pups are still feeding from mum. Keeping the pup inside is of no special benefit unless every single person who enters that house and who has done so in the last 6-12 months has sterilised their shoes and anything else which may bring the virus into the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) Interestingly, she supports the theory raised by Steve, that it has been shown to be better for pups to learn their socialising in their new environment yes - for HUMAN environmental things - removing from Mum & siblings and exposure to different people /sounds etc . are vital forpuppies raised in a kennel . Your puppies, on the other hand have already had a LOT of exposure to lights/householod noises/smells, and handling ..walking on different textures ..seeing things of all shapes & sizes - they are well on their way to being comfortable with people & human dwellings etc :) You have done good. BUT , I didn't see any mention in there about bite inhibition, or how to play carefully , or dog body language /habits ..... (sorry if I missed it) . I also don't believe that puppies should be "weaned"..as in removed forcibly from the mum once & for all. our pups are usually weaned before 8 weeks ..as ,since week 4/5 I reduce the amount of food given to the mum ..increase that given to pups (mainly raw meat/bones )..na dmum's milk is pretty well dried off by 7/88 weeks , as puppies have meat/bones to suck on , dry food (not soaked) freely available ..and mum is often away from them for long periods... Edited June 25, 2014 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesslc Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 I also believe that puppies should be "weaned"..as in removed forcibly from the mum once & for all. our pups are usually weaned before 8 weeks ..as ,since week 4/5 I reduce the amount of food given to the mum ..increase that given to pups (mainly raw meat/bones )..na dmum's milk is pretty well dried off by 7/88 weeks , as puppies have meat/bones to suck on , dry food (not soaked) freely available ..and mum is often away from them for long periods... I have been reducing mum's food and the pups are having a mixture of raw meet and dry food, although still soaked as they don't eat the dry stuff (they chew it but pretty much the whole lot just falls out of their mouths). Each day I am letting it soak less and they seem to be coping with that. Haven't given them any bones but I will try that too. They are in their room during the day while we are at work and at night. Mum is outside during the day and sleeps with us at night. The only time they are together is when we are home and let them all out into the house for a couple of hours. I feel bad keeping mum outside as she is used to being in with us, and I want the puppies to be with us as well, particularly since they are really demanding human attention, chasing us and jumping on our laps for cuddles and pats. I thought I might try the shirt trick and see if that stops her. Its not so bad when she's just inside with us, coz they have to chase her around for a drink, but she has on occasion laid down and given them a proper feed and that's what I'm worried about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I really do not understand why you are worried about BABY puppies doing what they should be - feeding on Mother's milk? It is the best food for them - it also makes mum feel good .and it is what dogs do ... if they are getting good food which keeps them full - plenty of water available - and if she is getting just a bare maintenance ration - it will sort out- trust me . A couple /three feeds from mum a day is a good thing in my book ... (sorry if I am missing something) . :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VizslaMomma Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) Its not so bad when she's just inside with us, coz they have to chase her around for a drink, but she has on occasion laid down and given them a proper feed and that's what I'm worried about. 5 weeks can be the start of the time when weaning happens. The puppies need to be eating 'solids' and the bitch's milk will be starting to dry up. They are totally gorgeous puppies :D It's natural for some feeding to still be given as of today. ( given their age). Consider that jumper to cover the Mother's nipples & stay with removing her when you can. Balance will happen. :D ETA: Persephone expressed it much better than me! This is natural behaviour.... Edited June 25, 2014 by VizslaMomma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesslc Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 I really do not understand why you are worried about BABY puppies doing what they should be - feeding on Mother's milk? It is the best food for them - it also makes mum feel good .and it is what dogs do ... Sorry persephone I must have mis-read your previous post I thought it said you support forceable weaning. My vet was also surprised that mum hadn't stopped feeding them at their age, so I figured maybe she was just doing too good of a job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) I really do not understand why you are worried about BABY puppies doing what they should be - feeding on Mother's milk? It is the best food for them - it also makes mum feel good .and it is what dogs do ... if they are getting good food which keeps them full - plenty of water available - and if she is getting just a bare maintenance ration - it will sort out- trust me . A couple /three feeds from mum a day is a good thing in my book ... (sorry if I am missing something) . :) I think she's getting conflicting advice and isn't sure what to take on board. Tess, are you worried that the pups will struggle to cope without mum's milk once they leave home if they are not fully weaned before hand? If that's the issue, you don't need to worry. As long as they are eating enough solid food (keep going with what you are doing with soaking less and less so they learn to,eat the hard food) they will cope just fine when there isn't milk around any more :) I personally wouldn't bother trying to block them with a shirt or jumper, I would just keep doing what you've been doing, unless she starts to tell them she's had enough and they don't listen! She'll make it very clear if she's had enough of them by firmly telling them to p*ss right off when they try to feed but with only two, she way well be quite happy to keep feeding until they leave. As Perse mentioned, mum should be on rations, no more food than she would normally have he'd pre-pregnancy, and back on adult food, not puppy. Try not to stress too much! ETA and yes, I think Perse had a typo :) Edited June 25, 2014 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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