Steve Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 Oh and not saying the issue didn't savagely divide the Dalmatian Club of America or piss breeders off all over the world either. There has been plenty of disagreement and horror at the sullying of purebred Dalmatians but as Bob Bailey, one of the worlds most incredible animal trainers responded when he was asked how to deal with people who insisted that compulsion/aversives were an essential part of dog training: "sometimes you just have to wait for people to die." Essentially you will never change some people and don't waste your energy trying. LMFAO I guffawed aloud really loudly at that quote and Jiji bolted from my lap. Love Bob Bailey! True except it doesn't bode well for anyone thinking change might come as easily as the Norwegians have implied. The young ones are just as stuck in fighting change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 Oh and not saying the issue didn't savagely divide the Dalmatian Club of America or piss breeders off all over the world either. There has been plenty of disagreement and horror at the sullying of purebred Dalmatians but as Bob Bailey, one of the worlds most incredible animal trainers responded when he was asked how to deal with people who insisted that compulsion/aversives were an essential part of dog training: "sometimes you just have to wait for people to die." Essentially you will never change some people and don't waste your energy trying. LMFAO I guffawed aloud really loudly at that quote and Jiji bolted from my lap. Love Bob Bailey! Isn't he brilliant! I've been laid up the past few weeks so have been watching his 5 DVD series. I knew all that he was talking about but it was great to be reminded without any sense of bullshit factor :laugh: Steve - it's the same in every facet of human life - whether it's animal welfare, science, child welfare, world peace. You can't change the world, just do your little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 Oh and not saying the issue didn't savagely divide the Dalmatian Club of America or piss breeders off all over the world either. There has been plenty of disagreement and horror at the sullying of purebred Dalmatians but as Bob Bailey, one of the worlds most incredible animal trainers responded when he was asked how to deal with people who insisted that compulsion/aversives were an essential part of dog training: "sometimes you just have to wait for people to die." Essentially you will never change some people and don't waste your energy trying. LMFAO I guffawed aloud really loudly at that quote and Jiji bolted from my lap. Love Bob Bailey! Isn't he brilliant! I've been laid up the past few weeks so have been watching his 5 DVD series. I knew all that he was talking about but it was great to be reminded without any sense of bullshit factor :laugh: Steve - it's the same in every facet of human life - whether it's animal welfare, science, child welfare, world peace. You can't change the world, just do your little bit. Yeah thats why Im punch drunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 This helps to see the big picture Allowing dogs of the same breed but from different registries is one thing; what about allowing crosses to dogs of a different breed? Early in the creation of breeds, crosses to other breeds were commonplace. For example, modern Shih Tzu descend from seven dogs and seven bitches, one of which was not a Shih Tzu, but a Pekingese. This cross occurred in 1952, long before AKC recognition of the breed. Approved crosses to other breeds after AKC recognition are rare but possible. In 1988, at the request of the Dalmatian parent club, the AKC approved the introduction of a Pointer into the Dalmatian gene pool in an attempt to introduce the genes for normal uric acid metabolism. The plan was to breed the progeny back to Dalmatians for several generations until theoretically all that remained of the Pointer influence was the gene for normal metabolism. But by that time a new board was in control of the Dalmatian club and they objected to the registration of the crossbred progeny. AKC lifted the registration privileges for these dogs, so the pointer genes never made it into the Dalmatian gene pool. The AKC now requires a full membership vote from the parent club before granting approval for such ventures. In the 1980s some Wirehaired Pointing Griffon breeders made crosses to Cesky Fouseks in an attempt to widen the Griffon gene pool. But without a priori parent club and AKC approval, they were not able to get AKC recognition of their stock. My link Re; The link/big picture. Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted April 16, 2016 Author Share Posted April 16, 2016 (edited) IMO the most interesting line in the Norwegian KC announcement was "The Norwegian Kennel Club wants to establish an endurance test for the brachycephalic breeds – this work is well underway" Brachy form isn't the problem, it's the associated loss of function. If someone can regain the function and keep the face baby-like, no worries. Sure there are related problems that need to be addressed, such as eyes that have a tendency to pop out of their sockets and bitches that require Ceasarians. But somehow, I suspect, if you breed for a dog that can take a good walk on a hot day, a lot of the other problems will begin to drop away. If not . . . making it necessary to register BOAS surgery, eye problems, Ceasrians and other dysfunctional aspects of the 'type' that wins shows could do a lot of good. Defining 'moderately' in millimeters or in terms of ration of length to width seems arbitrary. All I care is that the dogs are healthy! Edited April 16, 2016 by sandgrubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 (edited) IMO the most interesting line in the Norwegian KC announcement was "The Norwegian Kennel Club wants to establish an endurance test for the brachycephalic breeds – this work is well underway" Brachy form isn't the problem, it's the associated loss of function. If someone can regain the function and keep the face baby-like, no worries. Sure there are related problems that need to be addressed, such as eyes that have a tendency to pop out of their sockets and bitches that require Ceasarians. But somehow, I suspect, if you breed for a dog that can take a good walk on a hot day, a lot of the other problems will begin to drop away. If not . . . making it necessary to register BOAS surgery, eye problems, Ceasrians and other dysfunctional aspects of the 'type' that wins shows could do a lot of good. Defining 'moderately' in millimeters or in terms of ration of length to width seems arbitrary. All I care is that the dogs are healthy! Yep except it still up to the breed clubs. What concerns me is why an endurance for only some breeds - does this lead us to having different expectations for a brachy head breed and they will make allowances for their conformation and breed? If not why not a standard endurance for all breeds. Edited April 16, 2016 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirislin Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 I often read that people say it's the judges fault for awarding to certain kinds of dogs. So the breeders breed towards that. Then can the judges be persuaded/convinced to select for less extreme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 I often read that people say it's the judges fault for awarding to certain kinds of dogs. So the breeders breed towards that. Then can the judges be persuaded/convinced to select for less extreme? What comes first the chicken or the egg? If the breeders were not breeding dogs to extremes then the judges couldn't award them. If the breeders stopped then quite quickly the judging would change. It is the breeders who control the breed clubs and the judging there is no point blaming everyone and everything else because the breeders hold the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 (edited) IMO the most interesting line in the Norwegian KC announcement was "The Norwegian Kennel Club wants to establish an endurance test for the brachycephalic breeds – this work is well underway" Brachy form isn't the problem, it's the associated loss of function. If someone can regain the function and keep the face baby-like, no worries. Sure there are related problems that need to be addressed, such as eyes that have a tendency to pop out of their sockets and bitches that require Ceasarians. But somehow, I suspect, if you breed for a dog that can take a good walk on a hot day, a lot of the other problems will begin to drop away. If not . . . making it necessary to register BOAS surgery, eye problems, Ceasrians and other dysfunctional aspects of the 'type' that wins shows could do a lot of good. Defining 'moderately' in millimeters or in terms of ration of length to width seems arbitrary. All I care is that the dogs are healthy! Many breed standards state skull to muzzle ratios - Brachy breeds have shorter muzzles to skull . This could be why the boxer isnt in as much trouble as the Pug My link My link Edited April 16, 2016 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 Oh and not saying the issue didn't savagely divide the Dalmatian Club of America or piss breeders off all over the world either. There has been plenty of disagreement and horror at the sullying of purebred Dalmatians but as Bob Bailey, one of the worlds most incredible animal trainers responded when he was asked how to deal with people who insisted that compulsion/aversives were an essential part of dog training: "sometimes you just have to wait for people to die." Essentially you will never change some people and don't waste your energy trying. Bahaha. Great quote! I would sell my soul for a Dalmatian, but similarily I'm happy to wait until LUA's are more common in Australia and wait for one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 Oh and not saying the issue didn't savagely divide the Dalmatian Club of America or piss breeders off all over the world either. There has been plenty of disagreement and horror at the sullying of purebred Dalmatians but as Bob Bailey, one of the worlds most incredible animal trainers responded when he was asked how to deal with people who insisted that compulsion/aversives were an essential part of dog training: "sometimes you just have to wait for people to die." Essentially you will never change some people and don't waste your energy trying. Bahaha. Great quote! I would sell my soul for a Dalmatian, but similarily I'm happy to wait until LUA's are more common in Australia and wait for one of them. Will be interesting to see how the majority of the breeders here accept them too. Historically purebred breeders don't always warm to such things as expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 Oh and not saying the issue didn't savagely divide the Dalmatian Club of America or piss breeders off all over the world either. There has been plenty of disagreement and horror at the sullying of purebred Dalmatians but as Bob Bailey, one of the worlds most incredible animal trainers responded when he was asked how to deal with people who insisted that compulsion/aversives were an essential part of dog training: "sometimes you just have to wait for people to die." Essentially you will never change some people and don't waste your energy trying. Bahaha. Great quote! I would sell my soul for a Dalmatian, but similarily I'm happy to wait until LUA's are more common in Australia and wait for one of them. Will be interesting to see how the majority of the breeders here accept them too. Historically purebred breeders don't always warm to such things as expected. Well I expected a complete backlash so I'm happy with the amount of support these dogs are getting. Hopefully there will be more imports/exports to spread the gene around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 Oh and not saying the issue didn't savagely divide the Dalmatian Club of America or piss breeders off all over the world either. There has been plenty of disagreement and horror at the sullying of purebred Dalmatians but as Bob Bailey, one of the worlds most incredible animal trainers responded when he was asked how to deal with people who insisted that compulsion/aversives were an essential part of dog training: "sometimes you just have to wait for people to die." Essentially you will never change some people and don't waste your energy trying. Bahaha. Great quote! I would sell my soul for a Dalmatian, but similarily I'm happy to wait until LUA's are more common in Australia and wait for one of them. Will be interesting to see how the majority of the breeders here accept them too. Historically purebred breeders don't always warm to such things as expected. Well I expected a complete backlash so I'm happy with the amount of support these dogs are getting. Hopefully there will be more imports/exports to spread the gene around. How much easier would it be if you could import semen from an unregistered dog and have it admitted into the gene pool for the benefit of the breed without the treadmill .Well actually you can but not via the ANKC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Or even better if the Dalmatian Club here approved a program for this here and allowed the stud book to be open to move it ahead where it is viable . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Or even better if the Dalmatian Club here approved a program for this here and allowed the stud book to be open to move it ahead where it is viable . I'm not sure it's quite that simple. if it were we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Attitudes take time to change for a start. And it's not about allowing lots of Pointers to breed with lots of Dalmatians - what was done in the USA was a careful outcross to a single Pointer over something like 30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Or even better if the Dalmatian Club here approved a program for this here and allowed the stud book to be open to move it ahead where it is viable . I'm not sure it's quite that simple. if it were we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Attitudes take time to change for a start. And it's not about allowing lots of Pointers to breed with lots of Dalmatians - what was done in the USA was a careful outcross to a single Pointer over something like 30 years. It really is that simple and the club could easily control it so there isn't lots of pointers and lots of Dals .The reason its been happening for that long is due to the Dalmatian Club in the states who could have expanded the program if they chose to and who could have at the least approved opening the stud books to let them in. You're right attitudes do take a long time to change but the attitude of the Club is 100% controlling this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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