Newbies To The Training Forum Take Note:

[Rom]

There will be mention on this forum of controversial training tools such as prong collars and e-collars. Many of us come to here to learn from people who’s dog training knowledge comes from not only years in the fields of animal behaviour, but also police, search and rescue and military backgrounds. These people train dogs to have fast and enthusiastic compliance under such heavy distractions as bombs, bullets and attack by hostile forces.

In their training methods they recognise two things. The first is that the dogs drive and enthusiasm for the work has to be maintained for the protection of human life. The second is that any form of cruelty, or inappropriate use of correction or training tools, kill the dogs drive and enthusiasm for its work and hence its reliability in compliance to given commands; this puts human life at risk.

The knowledge and understanding of these two criteria have led the professionals on this forum to develop sensitivities in the use of the above training tools that will be hard for the uneducated and uninitiated to understand.

Whilst this forum will promote and protect your freedom to disagree with the use of the above training tools in your own given circumstances, at no time will it tolerate hostile comments, accusations of cruelty or challenges to training knowledge. Titles in the comparatively distraction sterile environment of the obedience ring do not qualify you to challenge the knowledge and experience of the above mentioned professionals, nor those of us who have sought their professional opinion and guidance, in such a manner.

The professionals that visit this forum give us their time and their guidance for free. I personally would like them to keep coming back without having to continue suffering attack and derogatory comments from uneducated amateurs.

[Ianto]

[poodlefan]

Those who like to argue that prongs are "cruel" and haltis are fabulous should contempate this:

Most dogs find halti's highly aversive. They are aversive whether the dog is pulling or not. Futhermore, they don't prevent pulling.

Halti's do cause health issues. Read the following if you don't believe me.

I was first made aware of negative effects head collars have in 1993 at a module of the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association chiropractic certification course, Illinois,USA. The rapid deterioration in neck mobility with the use of a head collar was demonstrated then and has been recognised by myself and many other veterinarians and registered chiropractors trained in veterinary chiropractic since. The principal restriction induced is of the upper neck, in particular the occipito-atlantal joints. This region is very highly innervated with proprioceptors which control our coordination, and dysfunction of this region of the spine is recognised by veterinary chiropractors as having major deleterious effects on the health of the dogs as a whole. If one observes dogs, even ones that have been well trained to head collar use, being led with head collars it can be seen in the majority of cases that the dog leans a little on the headcollar, causing bending of the upper neck. This leaning appears to be the source of the upper neck mobility restriction found on vertebral motion palpation. From a chiropractic point of view this restriction over the long term can lead to major health and musculo-skeletal problems.

Edited to take author's name out as I haven't been able to get his permission to quote him. I'm working on it though.

Edited December 1, 2006 by poodlefan

[Staranais]

Rom, they should make this a sticky.

Way too many people come onto this forum to criticise tools that they think look nasty but that they have no personal experience with.

[shoemonster]

I agree, Troy should pin this

Well said

[oonga]

Thanks Rom that is a fantastic post!!

i agree this should definately be pinned

[JulesP]

As a new person to this forum I would just like to say that I don't think any genuine newbies (as in not trolls) would even dare to say anything against Prong collars after watching the trolls (?) get ripped to shreds.

I certainly don't think any of the professionals needed this thread as they seemed to be doing a pretty damn good job of sticking up for themselves.

I have found the aggression on both sides to be rather disturbing. Think you should all chill out and go hug your dogs!

[MonElite]

Excellent post Rom.

I think this could be improved

Titles in the comparatively distraction sterile environment of the obedience ring do not qualify you to challenge the knowledge and experience of the above mentioned professionals.

We do welcome your comments as many in here also trial their dogs and would like any opportunity to get tips for the ring.

[Staranais]

I certainly don't think any of the professionals needed this thread as they seemed to be doing a pretty damn good job of sticking up for themselves.

But why should they have to perpetually stick up for themselves? It's always a case of uninformed newbies coming onto the forum and personally insulting established members for using tools that the newbies don't understand and haven't experienced. I'm sure it must get a bit old for the professional trainers, answering the same misplaced insults again and again.

Noone's saying that newbies can't ask questions about different tools, or state their informed opinions about them, or write about why they choose not to use them on their dogs - just as long as it's done without insulting the people who do choose to use them.

I for one am really grateful for the professionals who share their experience and knowledge for free on this forum. I think this was a great thread, Rom.

[dogdude]

This is an open forum to discuss all views held by everybody. I certainly am against any personal attack on a point of view regarding training methods, but although very greatfull to receive help from the professional people on this forum, its still an open forum.

The professionals on this forum drum up plenty of business from it, so im sure they wont mind another persons point of view. After all, they too have different methods they believe in.

Edited December 1, 2006 by dogdude

[Pitbull575]

Hi

Im just hoping no one took my questions regarding the prong collar as an attack or as implying that these collars are cruel... I have never seen these used,nor even knew they existed until reading the forum... was just trying to get info

[Greytmate]

at no time will it tolerate hostile comments, accusations of cruelty or challenges to training knowledge.

Titles in the comparatively distraction sterile environment of the obedience ring do not qualify you to challenge the knowledge and experience of the above mentioned professionals

So why are you challenging the knowledge of people whose experience lies in a community setting rather than a vocational one after telling us that it will not be tolerated?

I have yet to meet a person whose knowledge of dogs and dog behaviour is complete, regardless of a person's expertise in working with certain breeds or training dogs to perform specific tasks.

While certain training implements are illegal in certain jurisdictions, those with 'sensitivities' could keep in mind that the 'uneducated' and 'unititiated' will have doubts about the credibility of people that are advocating actions that are outside the law. How about accepting the challenge to educate and initiate with good grace, instead of an authoritarian style post about 'what will not be tolerated'? The forum rules go far enough in my opinion, and at times on this forum there is a very fine line between people freely sharing information for the benefit of dogs, and soliciting business for the benefit of themselves.

[Kavik]

The key is simply to have an open mind.

I have no problem with people questioning tools or methods as I hadn't heard of them until doing the NDTF course. The problem is it does tend to get heated on both sides of the discussion.

[m-j]

Aghh you know what they say there is only one thing two trainers will agree on that is that the third trainer isn't doing it right.

cheers

M-J

[JulesP]

Good one m-j

[arby]

Very well said rom

[Working_Setters]

There will be mention on this forum of controversial training tools such as prong collars and e-collars. Many of us come to here to learn from people who’s dog training knowledge comes from not only years in the fields of animal behaviour, but also police, search and rescue and military backgrounds. These people train dogs to have fast and enthusiastic compliance under such heavy distractions as bombs, bullets and attack by hostile forces.

In their training methods they recognise two things. The first is that the dogs drive and enthusiasm for the work has to be maintained for the protection of human life. The second is that any form of cruelty, or inappropriate use of correction or training tools, kill the dogs drive and enthusiasm for its work and hence its reliability in compliance to given commands; this puts human life at risk.

The knowledge and understanding of these two criteria have led the professionals on this forum to develop sensitivities in the use of the above training tools that will be hard for the uneducated and uninitiated to understand.

Whilst this forum will promote and protect your freedom to disagree with the use of the above training tools in your own given circumstances, at no time will it tolerate hostile comments, accusations of cruelty or challenges to training knowledge. Titles in the comparatively distraction sterile environment of the obedience ring do not qualify you to challenge the knowledge and experience of the above mentioned professionals, nor those of us who have sought their professional opinion and guidance, in such a manner.

The professionals that visit this forum give us their time and their guidance for free. I personally would like them to keep coming back without having to continue suffering attack and derogatory comments from uneducated amateurs.

Hi Rom - Whilst agreeing with your post, I would suggest that DOL is primarily a pet/show forum, with only a limited number of people seriously interested in training dogs to a high level, as such this type of thing is always likely to be a problem. If you'd like to learn about dog training from real trainers without the clueless interjections from people who have never seen, let alone understand how to use, prongs, e-collars or clickers for that matter, then I'd suggest there are a number of better places on the net than DOL.

[Rusky]

There will be mention on this forum of controversial training tools such as prong collars and e-collars. Many of us come to here to learn from people who’s dog training knowledge comes from not only years in the fields of animal behaviour, but also police, search and rescue and military backgrounds. These people train dogs to have fast and enthusiastic compliance under such heavy distractions as bombs, bullets and attack by hostile forces.

In their training methods they recognise two things. The first is that the dogs drive and enthusiasm for the work has to be maintained for the protection of human life. The second is that any form of cruelty, or inappropriate use of correction or training tools, kill the dogs drive and enthusiasm for its work and hence its reliability in compliance to given commands; this puts human life at risk.

The knowledge and understanding of these two criteria have led the professionals on this forum to develop sensitivities in the use of the above training tools that will be hard for the uneducated and uninitiated to understand.

Whilst this forum will promote and protect your freedom to disagree with the use of the above training tools in your own given circumstances, at no time will it tolerate hostile comments, accusations of cruelty or challenges to training knowledge. Titles in the comparatively distraction sterile environment of the obedience ring do not qualify you to challenge the knowledge and experience of the above mentioned professionals, nor those of us who have sought their professional opinion and guidance, in such a manner.

The professionals that visit this forum give us their time and their guidance for free. I personally would like them to keep coming back without having to continue suffering attack and derogatory comments from uneducated amateurs.

well I guess if everyone sticks to that it will be fine and maybe poodlefan would like to accompany me to a training session where the halti is certainly not used as a 'perfect for all dogs collar' but very useful for some dogs and when used correctly. I can take you to some clicker classes too where the dog doesn't run in fear.

Needs to cut both ways and no one needs to be ridiculed or undermined.

Aghh you know what they say there is only one thing two trainers will agree on that is that the third trainer isn't doing it right.

yep

[leopuppy04]

Rom - well said. I think that whatever works for someone is fine so long as they don't misuse the tool. When you misuse any tool it can lead to 'cruelty'.

Perhaps we can have a pinned topic about EACH of the training tools offered (halti's, chains, prongs, flat collars etc) and links to websites in a completely NON BIASED format... perhaps this will help 'newbies' understand how each tool works, before contributing to threads... I notice that no matter what tool we are talking about, we always cover the same thing because they don't understand the tools... I would be happy to write this if someone wants? Just be patient

Poodlefan - remember, in order to get people to not fire up about prongs etc, we need to sit on the other side of the fence and not fire up about halti's etc. It is the trainers choice what they use and why. It would be silly of us to believe we'd all agree on one simple tool!! LOL! BUT please don't always slam down the halters just because you don't agree with them.... I don't agree with certian training tools also, but I understand and know why they are used.... I've not had any trouble with my halti's.... why??? coz I use it properly :D!

[Arya]

Hi, as another new person to this forum, I think Rom's point was very well made and people shouldn't be so quick to judge. I've used both a head collar and a prong collar and used correctly and wisely, after some instruction from a very experienced trainer, the prong collar was and is a godsend.