Stay, Wait And Release

[leopuppy04]

But just to confuse things even more, on further reflection of my training, I would only use the stay/wait command if I was moving away from the dog ie if i was standing next to the dog & told it to stand, I would expect the dog to stand next to me until I gave it another command. Does that make sense? So if I walked up to a friend & told my dog to drop & started talking to her, I would expect my dog to stay in that position until I gave it another command (either release or obedience like heel etc). So in that case, I do expect the dog to stay until I give a further command just like Cosmo & Erny - confused now? So am I .

Makes sense to me Mrs D - but that could be because that is what I do Mind you - I still test my dogs by simply saying "sit/drop/stand" and then walking off (on my right foot) and praising them when they remain where they are told :D

Ness, I had forgotten about the new UDX change of position on the move exercise, interestingly there are heaps & heaps of dogs competing in UDX that were taught the old way with stays & waits & most dont have a problem with the exercise, so you have to wonder does it really make a difference? ;)

I'm a stay/waiter and my boy knows the COP on the move. He has no issues either way. I *try* and tiime it so that my next step will be off on the right foot. He seems to know that the 'position' command over-rides the 'follow me' command.... isn't it amazing how we 'expect' the dog to understand what we are doing, when we can't even explain it to others how the dog knows what we want it to do ;)

[dogdude]

The advantages that I see in the Wait/stay command are these:

If I come to a halt, and intend on moving off again at fast pace, I do not want the dog in 2 minds while working out what I want. I want the dog to be anticipating a forward movement, as opposed to a "heads up" Stay command, so that he remains in good heel position.

When I give the "stay command", I expect the dogs mind to relax a little, without full focus, but a full understanding of the exercise. The reason for that line of thought?, the out of site stay.

You can do the opposite by changing the tone and using "wait", to cue the dog into full focus (as required in the recall).

[MrsD]

Makes sense to me Mrs D - but that could be because that is what I do Mind you - I still test my dogs by simply saying "sit/drop/stand" and then walking off (on my right foot) and praising them when they remain where they are told :D

I do the same thing when my dogs get further advanced in training - I would expect my dogs to be able to stay only on "leaving leg" by the time they were trialling in Novice level but that's only me checking to see if the dog is watching me when I proofed, I wouldnt do it everytime I move. I do choose to give a command as a re-enforcer I suppose especially in the ring . I would HATE to have my dog sitting on a brilliant qualifier & to blow it's stay because it glanced away at the exact same time that I stepped off & it therefore wasn't positive which leg I stepped off with or not quite sure if I gave a command or didnt .

I'm a stay/waiter and my boy knows the COP on the move. He has no issues either way. I *try* and tiime it so that my next step will be off on the right foot. He seems to know that the 'position' command over-rides the 'follow me' command.... isn't it amazing how we 'expect' the dog to understand what we are doing, when we can't even explain it to others how the dog knows what we want it to do ;) :D

I havent started training UD or UDX under the new rules, so I havent tried it yet, but we did always used to do similar to the COP on the move when I trained my old dog & I didnt have any problems with him doing it either even though I always used stay & wait.

Interestingly I have never had an sort of problem with stays with any of my dogs until Jarrah. He takes the "stay" too literally & thinks that as long as he stays in the one place it doesnt matter what position he ends up in . I might try a position command reinforcer ie sit/drop on him instead of "stay" in his stays for a bit & see if he improves ;) .

edited to add a word to make it clearer

Edited March 19, 2007 by MrsD

[leopuppy04]

Interestingly I have never had an sort of problem with stays with any of my dogs until Jarrah. He takes the "stay" too literally & thinks that as long as he stays in the one place it doesnt matter what position he ends up in . I might try a position command reinforcer ie sit/drop on him instead of "stay" in his stays for a bit & see if he improves ;) .

Ahem - I hear ya there! I had/ have the same problem. Go back to basics is the easiest way to go, from experience! And tighten up the stays by doing resistance training etc

[Erny]

Question for you though - do you consider commands such as 'hold' also fruitless?

No .... I see advantage in "hold". I have used this when I have put my dog (ie physically manipulated) into a position (positions that are not frequently used and have no known commands to them) and then instructed "hold". One Eg. When my girl had to have heart xrays - I was able to escape the necessity of sedation or general anaesthetic because I was able to put Kal into position and say "hold". A lot of this was based in her trust in me, but she also understood it meant "keep that position; don't move".

Edited March 19, 2007 by Erny

[bloss344]

When I trained Bob we taught the dogs 'stay' and 'wait'. Now the new trend is to teach the dog not to self release as Jules said, therefore when the dog sits or drops we shouldn't need to tell him what else to do if that makes sense. Bob's pretty good, in staying when I leave him without either of the commands, but I did spend some time over the summer break working on this. I guess one difference between stay and wait is that Bob will realise there is probably a recall coming up if I tell him to wait, but I'll return to him if I tell him to stay.

[squeak]

In talking to a very well known dog trainer and sometime obedience judge I was told that European triallers do not use stay/wait, but command the dog to sit or down and expect the dog to hold that position until released or another command given. They said that to command "stay/wait" was a very Australian (and possibly UK or American thing but I can't remember), but that they couldn't see a problem with using an "extra" command in this situation. And this is from someone who is very, very much against people repeating commands.

Personally,I use stay to mean do not move, but tend to use wait where I don't mind if she changes position as long as she doesn't wander. I have had to teach her wait because of where I work the trainer use wait instead of stay, so there is a good chance they will use the command with her at some stage. This is the same reason that I have taught her to obey both the drop and down command. I am however more strict with the drop command because it is what I use and enforce, but at work she is likely to be told to "lie down" by anyone for a period of time, but they may or may not enforce it.

[Kavik]

What I find interesting about this discussion is that I have seen and been a part of both groups.

The obedience clubs I have gone to that trial, do tend to use stay/wait. Hand signals are also very big as later on people drop verbal cues.

The Schutzhund club I visited (and would like to go to again when I have time), along with the obedience/protection club and NDTF course did not use stay/wait commands. As stated before, it is because sit, drop or stand should mean the dog stays there until told to do something else. The Schutzhund club and obedience/protection club also had a bigger emphasis on verbal commands rather than hand signals (in Schutzhund I think you use only verbal commands?). So I found the difference very interesting.

I found it difficult starting up at an obedience club after some time away as I had not been using a stay command, and was told I pretty much had to use one for trialling. So I use 'stay' now but also do some work without the 'stay' command - I can do either one.

[MrsD]

Question for you though - do you consider commands such as 'hold' also fruitless?

No .... I see advantage in "hold". I have used this when I have put my dog (ie physically manipulated) into a position (positions that are not frequently used and have no known commands to them) and then instructed "hold". One Eg. When my girl had to have heart xrays - I was able to escape the necessity of sedation or general anaesthetic because I was able to put Kal into position and say "hold". A lot of this was based in her trust in me, but she also understood it meant "keep that position; don't move".

Ummmmmmm - in that exactly the same situation I would say "stay" ;) . Because although the dog may not know a command for lying on it's side, it does know that when I tell it to "stay" in a position, it knows it shouldnt move because I've taught it that in the sit/down/stand .

But I think LP was referring to "hold" when you are teaching retrieve .

[Erny]

But I think LP was referring to "hold" when you are teaching retrieve .

Yes - I contemplated that later. But holding the dumbell is, in a way, a "position". Kal deplored having anything other than a meaty bone in her mouth (and even then she never really ran around with it) but I could get her to hold a ball in her mouth for at least a few seconds with the use of "hold". Mind you, she would look quite disgusted at having to do this .... and because there was not much point (she wasn't into ball/toy games) I never saw the point in pushing that action.

The point I made of "hold" though, whilst being similar to your use of "stay" was that was only for positions which did not possess a particular command. It's a bit difficult teaching "lie on your back on this table with legs all outstretched and don't move your head or any inch of your body" for when xrays are being taken. ;).

With known commands and the way I train, there is no need to add an extra word (ie "stay") into the exercise. One word (ie the command) says it all. I would change that, I think, if I could recognise a real benefit to adding the extra word to the same exercise.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Erny

[Kelpie-i]

I think it all depends on the instructors "schooling" as to whether they will teach a stay/wait or just use the command word. I notice that all kennel club instructors teach the stay/wait, as do many of the books written by either English or American trainers, which is where I think Australians have adopted this from.

There is no right or wrong and I have seen dogs excel using both sit/stay and without. Dogs are not stupid and will usually learn what is expected from them, so at the end the of day, it is whatever the handler is comfortable with or used to.

I personally believe that less is more and so I don't use stay/wait, even when herding. If I tell my dog to "stop" whilst in the sheep yard, I expect him to stay stopped until I give him the direction in which I wish him to go next. I use the same principle with obedience and it works just fine. In herding, we also use hand signals with which the dogs tend to respond to better - and there isn't a hand signal for "stay" in herding.

However it is certainly interesting reading other people's comments and feelings on the subject.

Good question Cosmolo...one I've thought of many times but never worried about asking.

[Sayreovi]

Too be honest, ive never heard or seen someone use just a Sit/Drop as a stay till released command. Interesting. I might see what happens if i give them a drop and walk off on the right leg without command.

I personally use Stay/Wait because thats what i was taught lol, stay means that you stay there until i come back and wait is wait there until i call you. At the moment i am not into that much obedience and have hardly used the stay command for quite some time but wait i use in agility.

[Staff'n'Toller]

When I was working at a private club a few years ago we decided to take it out with our own dogs as an experiment- and it proved what we thought- you don't need it. It's more for the handlers benefit than anything. We never used wait anyway- I'm quite sure the dogs don't understand the difference between stay meaning the handler will return, and wait meaning they will be recalled.

What I have found is that it works perfectly in compulsion type training where you can give the dog a correction for breaking and then take them back and put them into the position, but in early clicker work there is the issue of 'click ends the behaviour' so if you're using clicker training then you need to be aware of fading the use of the clicker fairly early in each exercise so that you can focus on the release command.

I have tried at one particular club that really is 'purely positive' and they basically forced me to use stay, including the traditional hand signal which was my dogs 'target' hand, so it was very frustrating- and contradictory IMO. I am the opposite after so many years of not using it, now I feel totally stupid saying 'stay'.

Mel.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Staff'n'Toller

[Sne]

With my first dog we used sit/stay because we knew nothing else, and had never taken him to any obedience of any sort (and hence he was a handful and one could say disaster). With our new dogs we took them to obedience from day 1, and were surprised to learn that the school didn't teach stays. After 10 odd months of training this way I don't think I'd go back - its so much simpler to know that If I told my dog to sit/stand/drop, she'd comply and keep the position without me having to say a second command to get her to hold it.

[shoemonster]

I tried it and Ed moves with me if I don't say wait or stay

For someone who has always taught stay/wait, how do you let them know you want them to stay without telling them, how do you retrain? Do you just go back without saying anything and take off again, until they get it

[leopuppy04]

I tried it and Ed moves with me if I don't say wait or stay

For someone who has always taught stay/wait, how do you let them know you want them to stay without telling them, how do you retrain? Do you just go back without saying anything and take off again, until they get it

Simple - same way as you taught the stay. Take a very deliberate step off with your RIGHT foot - if they move "uh uh" and place Ed back. Do it again, If he doesn't move C&T. Only move the one foot as though you are going to take off and then increase it from there. He'll get the picture.

Cosmolo - another reason I just thought of why I prefer to use it (other than it makes me feel more comfortable!) - I am a very clumsy person and tend to get my footwork wrong in heeling. I also get confuzzled and can sometimes mess up with commands etc (my POOR dogs!). So that is why saying Stay/wait gives them the extra confidence of what I want them to do also. sometimes in the fig 8 I have to go off on my right foot etc, and other times I just may not be thinking - so I like to give them a definate 'stay wait'......

[Erny]

SM - How did you train "wait/stay"?

The same training as for that should apply to (eg) "drop". And you would go back to the very start as far as distance and distraction is concerned. Although once your dog has got the idea, it shouldn't take as long for him to catch on.

[Erny]

LP - Hear what you say about striking off with the wrong foot. For the more advanced dog, though, this becomes less important as by then he knows that unless he hears a change of command (or receives a hand signal) or release, then he stops in the last position you requested.

ETA: But as Kelpie-i has posted, by the sounds of it, it really doesn't matter whether you train for stay/wait or not. The results can be just as great.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

SM- if you're goint to be at Southern on Wedneday i can show you if you like?

LP- I second what Erny said in that even if you get your footwork wrong, usually there is a stronger over riding command- verbal 'heel' or hand signal.

I agree with kelpie- i that both can work BUT i have found that the dog who gets taught with stay generally (not all) take a bit longer to grasp the concept and can be a little more unreliable in highly distracting environments and/ or with out of sight work.

Thanks for contributing to a great discussion guys.

[bloss344]

I tried it and Ed moves with me if I don't say wait or stay

For someone who has always taught stay/wait, how do you let them know you want them to stay without telling them, how do you retrain? Do you just go back without saying anything and take off again, until they get it

I went back to basics with Bob. Doing short sits like puppies do and then releasing. Gradually increased the time. Ed shouldn't move with you if you step off with your right foot. Perhaps work on that too.