huski

In your opinion, are those things (herding, using a flirt pole etc) going to activate a dog's prey drive or are they things that you class as play? I have a hard time believing a herder isn't utilising their prey drive when herding.

Corvus, when Micha kills something (i.e. a possum) he treats it just like he does a toy. He doesn't eat it, and as soon as it stops squeaking he watches it just like he watches his Cuz ball and nudges it, picks it up and throws it so he can run after it again etc. He brings it over to me to throw for him. His behaviour with it is exactly the same as it is with a toy. Sure there is often more intensity when he is going after something that's alive because it's more exciting, the prey continues to run away from him (unlike a toy that stops moving once I throw it), the thrill of the chase has more build up. I bought him a toy that looks kind of possum like (similar size, colour, although it's a platypus, LOL) and he goes into prey drive just looking at it when I show it to him. I bet you if I could have it on a remote control so he could keep chasing it, I would get the same intensity I get when he's going after live prey.

Huskies and GSDs still have very different structure. Sibes are generally smaller too, bitches can be under 20kg and males shouldn't exceed 27kg. There would be more GSDs too, and not so many Sibes, with most Sibe breeders screening their dogs for HD even though it isn't very common in the breed. Sibes are generally known for being a breed with pretty good health. When bred properly they are a solid, compact and healthy dog.

Yeah there's a bit of a distance between you guys Daisy's not interested in doing things just because - she'd give you the doggy equivalent of the rude finger But she's very food driven so that makes it easy to motivate her I've used a clicker in the past but I'm far too unco to get it all going at the right time which is why I now just use the 'yes' marker

It's hard to explain over the net! I was lucky as I went to a K9 Force workshop at the end of 2008 and it really helped me understand it because I got to see it IRL. And Steve is really good at explaining things to more daft people like myself Drive building as I think Erny noted earlier in the thread is about getting the dog addicted to the game first.

How you get a dog into drive depends on their level of drive and their threshold. Daisy is pretty easy to get into drive, she's so food driven and her threshold to food is so low that she gets into drive quite quickly. I don't need to show her food to get her into drive, as she knows our drive command word means she'll be getting a food reward. My prey driven dog will go into drive at the sight or sound of a squeaky toy, or his ball. One way people maintain drive during trials is to release the dog to the reward once they've left the ring. It's not black and white as what works can differ for each dog, depending on the training you've done with them and how you've built their drive. Once you know what signs to look for it's easy to see whether a dog is in drive or not. ETA: don't know if it helps explaining the above at all, but here is a video of Daisy responding to the 'ready to work' command we use for training in drive. I haven't shown her any food, I don't have any food on me, but she still gives me a reasonable bit of drive in response to the command word (excuse my terrible handling and her crappy obedience - oh and the barking, she was SO excited, she rarely barks during training! LOL.). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHsjFxhrYu8

It would depend on the dog and how you are using the reward, IMO. There is a difference between using a drive reward (i.e. throwing a ball after the dog has completed a command) and training in drive. In the former situation the dog may not be in drive when he's working but he is rewarded in drive (if that makes sense - it probably doesn't, lol) and that's two different things. I use a marker word with Daisy because I'm too lazy to use a clicker, but I'm sure there are people out there who TID and also use clickers.

Me too. She is my pick (like I have a clue ) My picks totally relate directly to cuteness factor. That's how it normally works isn't it???? PS Love the new ticker

PS I am totally coming over for puppeh cuddles when you bring tri girl home

OMG Erin they are just damn adorable!! I really want a Finnish Lapphund for my next dog but damn am I going to have a hard time not getting another beag I love little lemon girl but tan and white girl is just lovely

What Erny said. In fact the sentence you quoted Erny was exactly the kind of statement I was referring to in my post.

Yep, I am finding that out the hard way I really didn't expect it to be so challenging either! I think half of our problem is that Kei gets bored too quickly. I'm all raring to go and he's like 'Nah, I don't wanna play that game today' I think a lot of dogs go through this. Part of it is teaching them that if they don't want to play, tough, you won't do anything with them at all until the next session.

That's exactly what I did. Started in prey drive but made the decision that food drive would be far more successful for Daisy. Awwww SK! You should see her in real life. Not so much of an inspiration in the flesh ETA: I should add that knowing people who have done both prey and food drive that it can be hard to develop that drive to a point you are happy with in the beginning. I found the first module more challenging than I imagined. Being able to build drive to a high level and then get the dog going into drive reliably on a command word and maintaining that drive can be tough.

Hi Secretkei I started training Daisy in prey drive and if I had a choice I would always prefer to, but Daisy has a naturally much stronger food drive. It was easier for both of us to train in food drive and at the end of the day I don't think the results are any different. For me it was simply using what my dogs naturally stronger drive is. The training is much the same too.

Ed's awesome! I remember watching some of his videos when I was just starting out with Daisy and wishing she'd have half his drive for food

Big hugs to Grover. Fingers crossed he makes a speedy recovery.

It's pretty awesome isn't it?? Sounds like Shyla has a higher prey drive than food drive One of the first things I would teach a prey driven dog is to release an item on command, if you get the technique right it's quite easy to do and they pick it up really quickly. Daisy learnt really quickly to release the tug when she realised that we'd start the game again as soon as she released it. I don't actually take Daisy to obedience club anymore; at least not to do the big hour long lessons. When we first started building her drive I would keep sessions between 1-3 minutes max. If you want to learn how to train in drive the best thing you can do is find a reputable trainer to help you build it properly so you have a good foundation to work on. Part of this is teaching the dog to go into drive on a cue word. IMO you won't get that great heelwork you see when you have her working in drive normally, or over time, without using that drive to your advantage.

In your opinion :D Prey drive is the desire to chase and grab a moving item. A tug is a moving item. The dog chases and grabs it. You can call it play drive all you like but that doesn't make it true, or mean that you know the dog doesn't see the tug as a prey item. How do you know that a dog doesn't see a toy as a prey item? Do you think Greyhounds racing on the track see the fake rabbit as something other than a prey item? Or that all dogs who do lurecoursing see the lure as something other than a prey item? Are they all responding "play" drive? How do you know they are? Yes I know that, and I've experienced the same thing with Kivi and his food-trained recalls without any drive training at all. I'm not disputing the effectiveness of it and I'm not interested in talking about the basics. You can look up the basics anywhere. But what about the subtleties? I was responding to the part of your post that said that when a dog gets to that point that it's useless to you. You can learn to harness and control it, so it's not so useless. The problem with your "research" though Corvus is that it seems to be all theory and little practical experience. You state your opinion as if it is fact, as if you've discovered something that some of the most experienced drive trainers in the country are yet to cotton on to. There's nothing wrong with doing tonnes of research (I do, to your surprise I'm sure) or forming your own opinion but stating it like it's fact, and implying that those who are far more experienced than you have it wrong is insulting.

Go Ella!! Can't wait to see it IRL :D

I started drive training with Daisy specifically to train her to compete in obedience. We'll be entering our first CCD trial in Febuary :D (now I've said it on DOL, I'll have to send the enteries in ). But, I know many more people who have competed through all levels of obedience and other dog sports using drive training.

And yet there are people on this forum who have used prey drive training successfully, without running into the problems you seem to think will occur. Do you think if someone is using their dog's drive successfully, that they must be using play drive, not prey drive? How many dogs have you seen in real life working properly in prey drive with their handlers? It's far from anti-social. Many dogs who have a history of reward with chasing live animals don't want much to do with a tug, especially when chasing that animal. Yet, ask experienced trainers like K9 Force and Erny etc and I bet they will be able to tell you of many clients who have been able to take these dogs and train them to see a tug as more rewarding, by utilising the dog's prey drive. I've seen Daisy's eyes get that glazed over look when she's hurridly gorged herself on food she'd grabbed, she's in drive peak which is why you can't pull your dogs back out of it. Drive training takes that energy and drive by taking it and putting in control so you CAN utilise it. It's the reason why people who've trained their dogs in prey drive can tell them to down or recall them when they are chasing live prey and have the dog respond instantly. There are so many people who've trained so many dogs successfully with prey drive, or play or food drive, that I actually find your current line of thought quite bizarre, and kind of insulting. Should we disregard the real experience of those who've had so much success with these methods? Whose dogs are certainly not damaged, or ruined by the training in any way? Abandon methods that work so well for so many dogs because you don't think we know enough about it? Despite your claim that your objection to drive training isn't about damaging the dog, your posts are suggesting otherwise. To be honest Corvus I don't understand how you can draw the conclusions you have when you've never done drive training and have little or no real experience with it.

Ignore her My beagle LOVES her crate, she is lost without it, I didn't even need to train her to like it - as soon as I set it up she went inside and sat in it

Corvus, when Erik goes mad chasing after his flirt pole, is that what you call play drive, not prey drive? Considering that prey drive is the dog's instinct to chase and grab a moving object, what do you define as the difference between play and prey drive? What experience are you basing your theory that utilising a dog's prey drive is neurologically damaging to the dog?

Hey Pluto, it's normal for pups that age to bite. It's because they haven't learnt bite inhibition yet.

Hold on Janemc, you weren't there either, were you? You're doing exactly the same thing as LED, "bad mouthing" the other party when you weren't there when the incident occured either.