Steve

thats not a code of ethics its a code of practice and every breeder in the state already has to comply with it. The only way it can be policed [they say] is via a complaint so they want every one who wants to breed a litter to be inspected annually to ensure they are within that code of practice - which in effect advantages commercial breeders and encourages those who only wanted to breed a little to breed a lot to get their money back on what they have to spend to comply.

Thanks - So the 1. A further tier of Breeder Registration as outlined in the Dogs NSW submission to the Taskforce is in fact opposing a potential further tier and whilst they are O.K. about other breeders needing a Licence they dont want their members to have to have a licence ? And 2.That Dogs NSW should be the regulatory body to oversee any further requirements imposed for Breeder Registration. Does this mean they are asking for being the regulatory body for all breeders or only their members?

No I mean what has dogs NSW submitted regarding an extra tier for breeders as per their petition.

this too. My link

how do we find what they have as a further tier recommended in their submission ?

The system may well have many failings, but I don't think having a choice to say "Medium Sized Mutt" would actually fix any of them :) :) Why?

Ellz and Alpha bet

This is what has been the belief for as long as I can remember but the research doesn't necessarily back it up . Goodard has some good stuff on this which shoots the theory a bit and orphaned litters usually turn out just fine without the input of their Mum on their environment after they are born.

I wont get an older dog . I like limited risk and like to start with a clean slate just in case and I love raising puppies so I think that is less hard work than training an older dog to come around to my house rules and the like. Forget about the dogs for a minute and take a look at you and your lifestyle what you expect to do with a dog and what you would rathe avoid For example I know if I had a breed that required lots of grooming I would not like that - its not something I enjoy and could afford a professional groomer. Im not that fussed on high end training nor do I have time for long walks consistently daily with the dog. Ive chosen my breeds to suit me, where I live, my family and other commitments in life knowing they don't suit everyone.

How much easier would it have been if a mutt was just a mutt - large medium or small .More honest because no one really knows and no one can expect if its crossed with something it will act that way anyway. Stupid system.

How much easier would it have been if a mutt was just a mutt - large medium or small .More honest because no one really knows and no one can expect if its crossed with something it will act that way anyway. Stupid system.

How much easier would it have been if a mutt was just a mutt - large medium or small .More honest because no one really knows and no one can expect if its crossed with something it will act that way anyway. Stupid system.

Not going for walks being dragged by the neck around the block isnt the same as being indoors all day. Depends on where you live your set up and the breed as to whether or not its an issue.

Are we both on the same page - perhaps Im misunderstanding - maybe my idea of feral is different so Define feral ? A dog left to its own devices does not necessarily become non tamed and a wild animal and the more intervention the lower the undesirable behaviour not temperament. Ive seen dogs left in back yard with little more than a feed and water for a decade which are still tamed dogs, like humans and other dogs etc when given the option though they are not trained. Maremma which are left to their own devices out on 1000's of thousands of acres where they see humans only every few weeks for basic observation are not trained to walk on a lead or to sit and stay etc but The ability for a Maremma to live within a flock of sheep and decide and do what is necessary with no aggression to keep them safe is not trained in - its bred in. leave them to their own devices and they do a better job not worse.

The main difference between then and now is the fact that we wont be working under the Pacers name. We will still do what we can via the MDBA.

Almost every dog I've owned over 35 years came in as a puppy – under 10 weeks of age one of two breeds All raised the same in the same environment – all similar but different. If we didn't believe that dogs have different temperaments which they are born with, genetically predisposed to then we wouldn't bother breeding purebred dogs and we wouldn't take so much trouble to research and choose a breed which is most suited to us but it's important to clarify what we are talking about when we speak of temperament to sort out whether it is nature or nurture and we are all talking about the same thing. According to research [segursonSA.] Temperament is different to character and different to personality. Character is considered the product of the animal's environment and experiences. The behaviours seen are the animal's habits of responding to stimuli. These develop secondary to experiences, a learning history. It is influenced by changing environment. Temperament: the pet's natural or innate responses to its environment, its emotional responses. It is considered stable over time, and is the foundation of personality.The character can influence it but cannot change it. Personality:combination of temperament and character, an animal's overall way of responding to the environment. It is based on past experience and genetic tendencies. As a good example some years ago I purchased a new baby beagle, by then I'd bred heaps and lived with a couple of dozen and knew what to expect as to how they behaved. This boy came in and was to all intents and purposes terrified. We always blamed the breeder's lack of socialisation and the fact that it had been in a situation all its life to 8 weeks with one person who went to work and had no experience with kids or the usual household stimulus. As he got older no matter how hard we tried he never acted the way we expected. He wasn't aggressive but passive and preferred to be left alone. All of the other beagles loved to be handled and loved but this little guy would simply stand up and move away. He showed no desire to scent and explore he was easy to live with never gave us a problem but he wasn't much fun either. It was obvious when they were all draped over the front porch staked up on top of each other he would be out on his own, he had no desire to play or have company. So because I blamed how he was raised as a pup and he was a handsome devil I bred him to one of my typically acting beagle girls. Puppies were beautiful but no matter how much work I put into it two were like their dad. Same Mum and same breeder, all puppies had the same stimuli and were handled and treated the same but by the time they were 8 weeks old I had no doubt whatever that the temperament this boy had was not the result of the socialisation but rather something he was born with. I also had a bitch who was a real cow and every time I turned around she was trying to escape, up and over , under or through to get out and go and she had some puppies who were as bad as she was even though she had no chance to teach them that. I had another beagle boy who refused to poop on the ground and used a water bowl as a toot, I got taller water bowls and he would balance on top of a thin rim to get that poop into the water trough drove me nuts and no amount of training or management prevented him from doing it .I worked him out and gave him two water bowls one he pooped in and I emptied as if it was a child's potty and the other he drank out of . he had a son and a grandson which did the same even though neither of them ever had anything to do with him to learn the behaviour, dogs that lived with him never copied him either. In my estimate that's not just a bad habit there is something born in them that drives them to it. Since then Ive selected for temperament and now there is rarely much difference in temperament,character or personality within each litter. I don't get one that's more or less pushy, more or less adventurous, more or less friendly and cuddly etc at 8 weeks even if I change the stimuli and environment, treat them differently with my Maremma which will go into working homes the basic temperament is the same.I also believe that if you dont select for work you dont just magically get it even though the breed was developed to work. You loose it if you dont select for it. Based on my research and experience as a breeder and a mother of 8 I believe that temperament is genetic if we are all using the same definition of temperament. References: Goodard, ME and Beilharz, RG (1986). Early prediction ofadult behavior in potential guide dogs. AppliedAnimal Behaviour Science 15:247-260. Svartberg, K, Tapper, I, Temrin,H, Radesater, T, Thorman, S (2005). Consistency of personality traits in dogs. Animal Behaviour 69: 281-291 Weiss, E and Greenberg, G(1997). Service dog selection tests: Effectiveness for dogs from animalshelters. Applied AnimalBehaviour Science 53:297-308. Wilsson, E and Sundgren P(1997). The use of a behaviour test for selection of dogs for service andbreeding. II. Heritability for tested parameters and effect of selection basedon service dog characteristics. AppliedAnimal Behaviour Science 54:235-241. Wilsson, E and Sundgren P (1998). Behaviour test foreight-week old puppies—heritabilities of tested behaviour traits and itscorrespondence to later behaviour. AppliedAnimal Behaviour Science 56:151-162. SegursonSA. Ch. 23 in: BSAVA Manual of Canineand Feline Behavioural Medicine, 2nded. British Small Animal Veterinary Association, Quedgeley,Gloucester, Ch 23 pp. 270-280.

Not much there yet - give it a week or so.

Thanks Bertie. The MDBA is going great guns and will have a welfare fund to enable us to help people and their dogs with some proceeds from the things we sell in our shop etc being set aside for this and Ive no doubt that we will call on our members now and then to throw something into the bucket, we will still distribute food etc in times of disaster and Ill still be here now and then collecting squares for community quilts and the like.

I hope you and everyone else who made a donation know how much this helped those who needed it . When you are down and in desperate need even $1 makes a difference and a helping hand changes your feelings of being alone - helps you to get up again.

We are still here and Im very happy that your life was made a little easier by our efforts but you shouldn't feel we wont still come in with a safety net if you need us.

Very true we are extremely proud of what we have done and the amount of people we have been able to help and we will continue to do so when ever we can - just not under the same structure.

Thanks Holly's Mum - we will still be helping people when we can. We just wont do it as a recognised charity.

Thank you, No I don't think there is anything anyone can do.

I thought this the most appropriate place to share this first. MDBA Pacers has been operating for about 5 years. During that time we have been able to help thousands of pet owners through their hard times and ensure their animals didn't go without or suffer and were able to stay with their owners. Many have had their animals waiting for them to come home to after accidents, disasters and in some circumstances gaol terms. In some cases we have worked with owners to help them to stop puppy farming or back yard breeding and be a part of the Desexing and re-homing process for their animals. Many of the things our volunteers have done have not been able to be made public due to the confidential nature of the situations but you all know who you are and how much we appreciate your wonderful caring and dedication to ensuring dogs don't suffer. In many cases we have been able to help people start their own businesses, gain self esteem and obtain skills and work to be sure they wouldn't get into the same position again and would always have a means to look after themselves and their animals. We have provided counseling services, for grief and sometimes just a good ear for someone to talk to and doggy day care for those who were too frightened to leave their animals at home alone after the bush fires. We have been able to provide foster care, food, fencing, hampers accommodation vetting and support to those who needed it in every state and wehave been able to help support private rescue in three states by procuring literally truck loads of dog and cat foods and hay for them to use and keep down their costs. We sent in truck loads of human and animal suppliesthroughout the Victorian Bushfires, Queensland, NSW and Victorian floods. I would like to now say thank you to everyone who hassupported us and helped us and donated goods and funds etc. I hope you all know how verymuch your input has made a difference to people's lives and it's been mypersonal honour to know you and work with you throughout this journey. To the people who have worked on the board who have given their time and energy and personal money without ever a complaint and little appreciation shown, no words could ever explain how much you have contributed even though you could not afford it and had to work through your own personal issues – always putting others first. Always free of charge and always with a willing spirit. Lesley Stewart and Jay Walker –awesome! Sometimes we wanted to help more but funds and resources were limited and we couldn't do what our hearts wanted us to do but these ladies have always been there trying and working away in the background every single day oft heir lives with Christmas and Easter given over without complaint to help someone in trouble. They have had extra dogs in their homes and worked like slaves for no reward and sometimes have even been used and abused for their trouble when people thought they should help more than they could. To Troy from Dogzonline who supported Pacers throughout its existence from day one with donations and free use of the forum I thank you for the role you played. I will always be grateful for the help you offered and many regular dogz people had the benefit of this as well as the general public. We are currently wrapping up the cases we are still helping and the legal and auditing issues required to permanently close Pacers down and this has been no easy decision but if all goes as is expected with heavy heart Pacers will close on the 31st of December this year. The MDBA will take over some of this work via welfare for our members and help out in natural disasters when needed but Pacers will officially close on the 31st December 2012. Thank you everyone. Julie Nelson. CEO MDBA Pacers.

Well unless BP tells us why it has taken so long,we can only speculate. However, I think we can be excused for expecting a pound to have a handle on all the different registries, all the different sorts of chips and all the ways chips can migrate and be diffIcult to find. Yep .